I don't know if you all are following the "legal threats" on the Swedish bit-torrent site "The Pirate Bay", but it makes for a fascinating read, I think. Basically the story is that the site, run by Swedes in Sweden, offer torrents of copyrighted material (movies, games, etc.) which is not an illegal activity in Sweden, but definitely illegal elsewhere. This has prompted a lot of lawyers, representing companies such as Micro$oft, Apple, EA, and Sega, to send letters threatening with legal action. The renegades at the site ridicule the lawyers and post the emails on their site, feeling safe in the knowledge that they cannot be held accountable for violating foreign laws. Is this true? Are the affected companies only options to persuade the Swedish government to change the Swedish laws, or to persuade their own to invade Sweden?
I'm thinking, if I bought myself an island, declared it to be an independent country, and allowed psychos (which we know there's a neverending supply of) to play live Counter Strike there, would it be possible for me to be charged with accessory to murder? What if I lived in a country, where accessory to murder is illegal, but the killings and all preparatory steps were still carried out on the independent island?

I think that in your own sovereign territory, you generally have the right to set whatever laws you like, even if they are violations in other countries. The only time you would run into trouble would be situations where you violate international human rights laws such as the case of Pinochet, Milosevic, etc. However, is it in Sweden's best interest to have such laws on the books? Look at China for example, they are notorious violators of copyright laws which has strained a lot of trade relations. I think if Sweden continues such trends they may face international backlash/resentment.

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quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I'm thinking, if I bought myself an island, declared it to be an independent country, and allowed psychos (which we know there's a neverending supply of) to play live Counter Strike there, would it be possible for me to be charged with accessory to murder?

Not unless the UN recognises you as an independent state (which is what is required, among other things, to acheive the status of nationhood). If it doesn't (which it wouldn't) I'd assume that you'd still be accountable to the laws of the nation whose waters your island is in, or - if the island is not in any nations marine teritory - your nation of residency (in your case Denmark or the US, I suppose). I don't know that for sure, but it's an educated guess.

quote:

What if I lived in a country, where accessory to murder is illegal, but the killings and all preparatory steps were still carried out on the independent island?

If you're an accessory to a murder committed in a different country, I'm pretty sure that your own country would still have the power to prosecute you for it. Without having done any research on this, obviously, I'd imagine that very few nations have their laws against murder worded in such a way that would restrict them to prosecuting their own citizens for murder only if the murder was of one of their fellow citizens. For instance, if I was an accessory to the murder of someone in Iraq (which still doesn't have a constitution and therefore any formal laws), I'm pretty sure that the Australian government would prosecute me (for accessory to murder of an Iraqi national) even if the Iraqi government couldn't.

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider However, is it in Sweden's best interest to have such laws on the books? Look at China for example, they are notorious violators of copyright laws which has strained a lot of trade relations. I think if Sweden continues such trends they may face international backlash/resentment.

Well, there's a difference in that in Sweden you're not allowed to offer illegal copies for download, but you are allowed to tell people where illegal copies can be downloaded (and the "where" is basically what a bittorrent file is, as far as I understand). In Denmark we used to have the same kind of law, because making it illegal open up a lot of problems, all connected to what "where" is. For instance: If I put a link to google on my web page, and google has search results with illegal copies available to download, did I tell my visitors where to find the illegal material? You would think that common sense could help here, but since we made such "roadmaps" illegal, we have had a case where the local RIAA got upset at a filesharing advocate, X, and found a link on his web site, A, which linked to another page, B, which again linked to a forum, C, where a user had posted the infamous "The Grey Album" by DJ Dangermouse, D. The local RIAA sued X, and the only reason why he got off the hook was that he could prove that he had linked to B before the post linking to D was created on C.
So clearly, if you want consistent and well-founded laws, which at the same time allows for the Internet to exist, then Sweden are doing the only sensible thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade If you're an accessory to a murder committed in a different country, I'm pretty sure that your own country would still have the power to prosecute you for it. Without having done any research on this, obviously, I'd imagine that very few nations have their laws against murder worded in such a way that would restrict them to prosecuting their own citizens for murder only if the murder was of one of their fellow citizens. For instance, if I was an accessory to the murder of someone in Iraq (which still doesn't have a constitution and therefore any formal laws), I'm pretty sure that the Australian government would prosecute me (for accessory to murder of an Iraqi national) even if the Iraqi government couldn't.

If what you write is indeed true, which sounds reasonable, then I can see some problems, in that a murder commited by, say, a Dane in, say, Germany would be a violation of two laws: The Danish and the German do-no-kill laws. This would lead to unsettled questions as to which country should be allowed to prosecute the offender, if both countries should be allowed to punish him, and if the laws differ (e.g. one of them calls for capital punishment, the other for a $200 fine) which law to use. The last point would be even more interesting if the offense is only illegal in one of the countries. E.g. if I go to China and copies a CD by a Danish artist (as if that would ever happen), can I be prosecuted?

No way can you your country prosecute you for breaking its laws else where (unless that is specificly written into the laws of your country maybe? ).

I mean that would be like drug testing everyone who arives home on a flight from the Netherlands!

I'm am fairly confident on this.

Remember also that a nation is just a collection of people who identify themselfs as citizens. If one country says this is the law of the land, then that is the law of the land. For the same reason we can't just attack Zimbabwe for being run by an arsehole.

EDIT: It even says at the top of the "threat"

quote:

20 February 2004 Dear Sir or Madam, This letter serves as notification under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. § 512, or equivalent notice provisions of your local law, that content currently residing within your computer system infringes on the copyrights of Microsoft Corporation. Moreover, the source code contains proprietary trade secret information belonging to Microsoft. I am authorized to act on behalf of Microsoft in this matter. .......

Last edited by Dervish on Jun-06-2005 at 01:03

Also surely EU law has some bearing on this?

A crime can be committed at an international level and at a national level. For an international crime to be applicable at a national level that nation must have agreed to it by treaty (i.e. by joining the U.N., WTO, NATO, etc).

There are some IP treaties which Sweden might or might not be apart of. There is an effort for international law in the field of IP but I haven't been following it closely. My understanding is that most treaties of such nature have stalled.

A nation where the crime is commited has first "lien" on the suspects/perpetrators. The country of the nationality of the victim/accused have second lien.

Extradition can always be requested and is typically granted on merit.
i.e. of a Dane kills a Dane in Germany for sleeping with his Danish wife in Denmark and then goes to Germany in pursuit of the fleeing Dane, he will most likely be extradited.

Also, a foriegn citizen can violate another nation's law outside of it (as in this example) and upon entering the nation accusing him of crime (i.e. the USA) can be arrested and tried.

Finally, nations can always take "matters into their own hands" and if they don't like what some nation is doing with their citizen or someone who has killed their citizens it can do pretty much whatever it likes (although not always legally).

Legally you can have your island nation run a real live counter-strike game. You'll be pretty set, however you will get to trouble if foreigners start to die. There will not be a legal justificaiton to invade your country (barring a UN Security Council Resolution) but most likely foreigners will be banned from arriving into your nation.

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Wauw Yoepus. A concise and informative post! Greatly appreciated.

You seem pretty confident, how do you know this stuff?

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Originally posted by trancaholic Wauw Yoepus. A concise and informative post! Greatly appreciated. You seem pretty confident, how do you know this stuff?

Too many international politics courses...

Nah actually they weren't too bad, I had a kick-ass Prof, and I've always taken an amauterish facination with international law for some reason.. Dunno why. Then again I also like constitutional law. And as a fall back contractual law. I don't like 'regular' law much though


Anyway, you might want to check some more info on intepol (was created as a UN agency) and WTO. I don't think interpol does any IP (Intellectual Property) stuff at the moment though, then again neither does the UN. But the UN is competing with the WTO and having their own IP conferences and what not.

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Here is an exapline trancholic:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto..._missing_teen_2

This girl disappeared in Aruba (independent nation) yet suspects for her murder/disappearance are being prosecuted under Aruba law.

The FBI is aiding the investigation (undoubtedbly with permission of Aruba) and if the suspects turn out to be American there is a possibility the FBI/others will request this case to be extradited to the USA.

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