For millenia people who were different than collectively accepted had to face what is known as 'justice'. Penalties where enforced for not applying to the collective idea of 'right' and 'wrong'.

If one allows himself to reason and follow logic for a moment one will come to the conclusion that 'right' and 'wrong' Is bullshit.

Just 700 years ago, a minor timespan on the scale of human evolution it was seen as 'wrong' to be Gay, just as wrong as people find it today to torture someone into confession, Now being Gay is almost accepted and torturing someone into convession was okay then.

And even today, on different parts of the planet we inhabit the ideas of right and wrong differ greatly. Dressing without a Burqa is so wrong in Iran that a women will receive mutilation for that while it's perfectly okay here in Holland. On the other hand, it's okay to have sex with a sheep there while one will end up in jail on account of animal mistreatment in Holland. If the same person is being mutilated on the other side of the world and when it's on vacation to holland it's all okay surely one must realise that the ideas of right and wrong are based on all but logic.

I too find torturing someone to death a bad thing, and sleeping with sheep not okay, just because I live in holland, If I was born in Iran I'd think otherwise. It's what is told to us in our inprentive age that shapes our image of right and wrong, not our conscious thought.

I know that I my ideas are based on nothing, I can't argumentate why I think it's wrong, not concrete logical arguments though, yet I keep that opinion. I just as any other human am nothing at logical thinking. We fool ourselfs that we are the peak of cognitive thought. We are nothing. We judge almost everything with emotions.

The real injust is done to criminals. They suffer because they are different, not because they are wrong.

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I naver make eny spalling errors.

quote:

Originally posted by kutvolkots For millenia people who were different than collectively accepted had to face what is known as 'justice'. Penalties where enforced for not applying to the collective idea of 'right' and 'wrong'. If one allows himself to reason and follow logic for a moment one will come to the conclusion that 'right' and 'wrong' Is bullshit. Just 700 years ago, a minor timespan on the scale of human evolution it was seen as 'wrong' to be Gay, just as wrong as people find it today to torture someone into confession, Now being Gay is almost accepted and torturing someone into convession was okay then. And even today, on different parts of the planet we inhabit the ideas of right and wrong differ greatly. Dressing without a Burqa is so wrong in Iran that a women will receive mutilation for that while it's perfectly okay here in Holland. On the other hand, it's okay to have sex with a sheep there while one will end up in jail on account of animal mistreatment in Holland. If the same person is being mutilated on the other side of the world and when it's on vacation to holland it's all okay surely one must realise that the ideas of right and wrong are based on all but logic. I too find torturing someone to death a bad thing, and sleeping with sheep not okay, just because I live in holland, If I was born in Iran I'd think otherwise. It's what is told to us in our inprentive age that shapes our image of right and wrong, not our conscious thought. I know that I my ideas are based on nothing, I can't argumentate why I think it's wrong, not concrete logical arguments though, yet I keep that opinion. I just as any other human am nothing at logical thinking. We fool ourselfs that we are the peak of cognitive thought. We are nothing. We judge almost everything with emotions. The real injust is done to criminals. They suffer because they are different, not because they are wrong.

You tried to lose me when you said "collective idea of wrong and right". The rest of the post is utter gibberish. Yeah, let's pity criminals--they are the true victims, after all. Are you kidding me???

No.

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I naver make eny spalling errors.

You're not being very logical. If there is no "right" or "wrong" than society isn't being "wrong" when it imprisons criminals.

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Retro ...

it's all about cause and effect. if people perceive that the effect that follows a cause is appropriate, then it's said that there is justice or everything is 'ok'. if the effect is perceived as innappropriate, then there is an injustice ot not 'ok'.


for instance, if a man gets his hand cut-off for stealing a bar of soap in the US, then chances are that the punsihment would be unjust. the effect would seem inapporopriate for the cause. on the other hand, this might not seem unjust in islamic countries.

:/

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Justice is based on societal norms. Live in stoneage or fanatical religious countries and you get their interpretation of justice. Absurd to the rest of us, but the norm there. BTW, were you saying sheep sex was Okay with the Muslims and did goats count as sheep too?


[[[smoke]]]

if there is no basis for law enshrined in \"wrong\" & \"right\" then we\'re all in a lot of trouble. yes, its very problematic when attempting to analyse differing cultural and social norms, but it must be done.

i believe you can transcend cultural influences purely through reason and rational thought, and establish whether some activities should be curbed with legal frameworks.

otherwise its all one nice pit of apathetic conjecture which solves nothing, and the human race will never evolve, and law is simply a process of evolution. we should be striving towards what makes logical & reasonable sense *now*, as ultimately that is all we can ever do. how something has existed for XX years should have no relevance when assessing its current intrinsic character and how it relates to contemporary life.

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I didn't said it was wrong to punish criminals I said it was cruel.

Spacy orange's case just clearly makes my point. The same man'll suffer different fates in both contries so one of them is already not correct, take that on a world wide scale only one country can have a justice system that's 'correct' I prefer to think thus far through that none has.

Yes it says in the Koran that you may intercourse with a sheep if your wife menstruates. Although I think it's prejistice of you to mix up Iranies with Muslims.

We already hardly evolve anyway, thanks to medcare, infiriour genes live on. I'm a psychiatric patient and I get to send to special education. I won't procreate anyway though but some in my class will.



Do you think I can feel any sense in this? My feeling don't back this case up but if logic says it's that way which it clearly does on a logical basis criminals are discriminated than I'll follow that guidline no matter if it feels wrong. One could say that I disagree with myself.

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I naver make eny spalling errors.

i meant SOCIAL evolution, not biological.

i also firmly believe that one day we will have very similar & comparable laws across all nations. just becoz some nations have different laws to others is not reason, in and of itself, to resist finding humane, absolute laws that could apply everywhere. and in fact thats exactly what UN international law is all about.

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quote:

Originally posted by kutvolkots I didn't said it was wrong to punish criminals I said it was cruel. Spacy orange's case just clearly makes my point. The same man'll suffer different fates in both contries so one of them is already not correct, take that on a world wide scale only one country can have a justice system that's 'correct' I prefer to think thus far through that none has. Yes it says in the Koran that you may intercourse with a sheep if your wife menstruates. Although I think it's prejistice of you to mix up Iranies with Muslims. We already hardly evolve anyway, thanks to medcare, infiriour genes live on. I'm a psychiatric patient and I get to send to special education. I won't procreate anyway though but some in my class will. Do you think I can feel any sense in this? My feeling don't back this case up but if logic says it's that way which it clearly does on a logical basis criminals are discriminated than I'll follow that guidline no matter if it feels wrong. One could say that I disagree with myself.

You're still not making logical sense. If criminals can willfully commit cruel acts against people and escape judgemental criticism according to your standards, why then is it that society is subjected to judgement when it commits "cruel" acts against criminals (aka justice)?

In other words, you're subjecting the individual to a different set of standards than you are subjecting society which doesn't make any sense. Yes societies have different standards of what is right and wrong, however, saying that because there is a difference set of standards, that that negates all justification for societies response to criminals is simply preposterous. Solely because once you derive it down to that level, whatever society does is AS justified as anything the individual does.

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Retro ...

Last edited by occrider on Jun-30-2005 at 06:36

quote:

Originally posted by kutvolkots For millenia people who were different than collectively accepted had to face what is known as 'justice'. Penalties where enforced for not applying to the collective idea of 'right' and 'wrong'. If one allows himself to reason and follow logic for a moment one will come to the conclusion that 'right' and 'wrong' Is bullshit. Just 700 years ago, a minor timespan on the scale of human evolution it was seen as 'wrong' to be Gay, just as wrong as people find it today to torture someone into confession, Now being Gay is almost accepted and torturing someone into convession was okay then. And even today, on different parts of the planet we inhabit the ideas of right and wrong differ greatly. Dressing without a Burqa is so wrong in Iran that a women will receive mutilation for that while it's perfectly okay here in Holland. On the other hand, it's okay to have sex with a sheep there while one will end up in jail on account of animal mistreatment in Holland. If the same person is being mutilated on the other side of the world and when it's on vacation to holland it's all okay surely one must realise that the ideas of right and wrong are based on all but logic. I too find torturing someone to death a bad thing, and sleeping with sheep not okay, just because I live in holland, If I was born in Iran I'd think otherwise. It's what is told to us in our inprentive age that shapes our image of right and wrong, not our conscious thought. I know that I my ideas are based on nothing, I can't argumentate why I think it's wrong, not concrete logical arguments though, yet I keep that opinion. I just as any other human am nothing at logical thinking. We fool ourselfs that we are the peak of cognitive thought. We are nothing. We judge almost everything with emotions. The real injust is done to criminals. They suffer because they are different, not because they are wrong.

First off you fail to realize that we are part of societies of differing beliefs, values and thoughts so to compare Holland with Iran or wherever else you may draw comparisons with is seriously flawed in arguing about rights and wrongs of criminality. With that said there is a reason that rules of law exist in societies, albeit those are shaped by innumerable factors for respective cultures.

A classic example is honor killings which are often tolerated in Islamic cultures. In virtually any other part of the world that would be a disgusting and contemptuous crime of murder. Yet some of these men involved get away with it in the guise of family honor in the Islamic world "where it occurs." Quite an injustice is done to these criminals, right? So I ask you is the German government wrong for trying to cease honor killings among Turkish Germans who don't like the way their daughter is being disrespectful. What exactly are you arguing.

Unless you are suggesting that human beings live like the herds of wildebeests and prides of lions on the African savannahs, we will of course utilize emotion in society, it is what makes us human. I personally could not imagine myself being a serial killer who kills, goes home and sleeps and does the same thing again the next day, hence we have psycho and sociopaths. Laws exist for a reason or else anarchy would be a mild option for what might happen if there exists no consequences for our actions in life.

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Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Jun-30-2005 at 13:49

I am suggesting that humans are barbaric inferiour and savage, we're life for fucks sake.. We don't act on logic we act on reproduction.

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I naver make eny spalling errors.