Man, curbing civil liberties and abondoning some of the most fundamental tennets of western democracy (the right to free-speech, the right to freedom of religion, a commitment to the upholding of human rights and so forth) while caught up in a state of panic will sure show those terrorists who's boss!

___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Man, curbing civil liberties and abondoning some of the most fundamental tennets of western democracy (the right to free-speech, the right to freedom of religion, a commitment to the upholding of human rights and so forth) while caught up in a state of panic will sure show those terrorists who's boss!

Renegade have you ever heard the discourse that openly takes place by some of these individuals in reference to Western society, while they live in the midst of it mind you. Freedom of speech has always entailed responsibility in our actions, sadly until something happens, after the fact usually then people speak up. Protesting the war and presenting differing political viewpoints are one thing, standing in front of the Finsbury Park Mosque and calling for jihad, cut them down limb by limb and we side with the terrorists are all statements that leaves one dumbfounded. In a democracy there are ways to express one's opinions, advocating violence tacitly or directly through such filth, while under the guise of religous freedoms does not hold sway. All of a sudden the freedom of speech of these hatemongers becomes more important than the words they preach to spread hatred of others. What is freedom of speech without responsibility when others use that right to threaten the broader society as a whole.

If you are in Britain, respect Britain. I am an immigrant myself and would never preach or endorse the deaths of other people in America no matter that I disagreed with the war in Iraq.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Aug-05-2005 at 21:54

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Renegade have you ever heard the discourse that openly takes place by some of these individuals in reference to Western society, while they live in the midst of it mind you.

Oh yes. Believe me, we have our fair-share of idiotic Muslim fundamentalists in Australia as well...

quote:

Freedom of speech has always entailed responsibility in our actions, sadly until something happens, after the fact usually then people speak up.

The right to free speech and the need to be responsible for our actions are essentially two different things. Our right to speak freely extends to the point at which the speech incites direct physical harm to individuals (to use the old example, this would mean shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre or, to use the more topical example, encouraging the faithful to slaughter "infidels") and so, providing that these boundaries are not crossed, this is the extent to which our responsibilities lie with regards to speech so as far as I'm concerned. Anything else - regardless of how abhorrent, distasteful or stupid the topic of the speech may seem - is fair game.

quote:

Protesting the war and presenting differing political viewpoints are one thing, standing in front of the Finsbury Park Mosque and calling for jihad, cut them down limb by limb and we side with the terrorists are all statements that leaves one dumbfounded.

If these men are saying "It is your categorical duty as a Muslim to kill the unfaithful" then, as I said above, this would constitute a direct call to inflict physical harm and this goes well beyond the right one has to speak as one wishes. If, however, the extent of their "hate-speech" consists of platitudes like "Osama bin Laden is a good Muslim" or "These terrorist attacks were a justifiable response to Western policy in the middle-east" (which, let's face it, are the sorts of things that the Muslim clerics targetted by this new legislation are saying - I have not heard of one of these clerics here, in the UK, or anywhere else in the western world directly calling for violence against their fellow civilians) then this is, as I see it, well within their fundamental right they have to speak freely. Can you deport / imprison someone for calling Stalin or Hitler good men, despite the large number of people they killed? Could you deport them for supporting the Vietnam war, in which tens of thousands of innocent civilians were indiscriminantly killed in the name of an ideology? If not then what, exactly, is the difference?

quote:

In a democracy there are ways to express one's opinions, advocating violence tacitly or directly through such filth, while under the guise of religous freedoms does not hold sway.

You're going to have to distinguish between "advocating" violence and "inciting" violence, though. The invasion of Iraq was inherently violent, for instance, and resulted in the deaths of nearly 500 times as many civilians as the London train bombings, but is Blair likely to imprison / deport the people who supported it?

Like I said, the direct call to violence is inherently wrong and no society need tolerate those who attempt to do so. However, there is a big difference between what these Muslim clerics are saying (or at least what I've read about them saying) and the sort of extremities of speech that would justify them being outlawed.

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All of a sudden the freedom of speech of these hatemongers becomes more important than the words they preach to spread hatred of others.

But that's the thing: freedom of speech is central to the idea of democracy. You can't justify the invasion of a sovereign state under the guise of support for democracy and then follow it up by undermining the fundamental tennets of democracy at home, as Blair and Howard are doing right now. What sort of logic is that?

As an atheist, I find most religious speech distasteful, especially the sort of fundamentalist drivel coming from the mouths of these immams. However, as I recognise the right of these views to be aired publicly (and summarily exposed, publicly, for the idiotic tripe that they are) I will also gladly stand up for their right to say it.

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What is freedom of speech without responsibility when others use that right to threaten the broader society as a whole.

Precisely, but right to free speech != right to incite harm upon society.

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If you are in Britain, respect Britain.

Define respect? I am a British national and an Australian citizen and I don't particularly respect either government at the moment. Do I have an obligation to respect these administrations or the culture / laws they supposedly represent?

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I am an immigrant myself and would never preach or endorse the deaths of other people in America no matter that I disagreed with the war in Iraq.

Yep, obviously agreed.

___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand it is a limit on freedom of speech, which could end up creating more of the same sparks it's trying to get rid of. But on the other hand, it's also a good security mesure. Absolute freedom is self-contradictory in nature. Every law is a limit on some form of freedom, and we all know society does not work without those limits.

Now the thing that bothers me is that this seems to be particularly targeted at muslims. This could make alot of people think it's an attack on islam, and could create more tension. And while blair denounces islamic radicals, he's still working closely with a christian radical.

I think these measures will actually get through, even if barely, and most people will be generally for it. That is until one day the new laws are somehow used against a non-Muslim Westerner voicing their opinion on something. They really are basically saying "don't worry, the laws will only be used on people with a turban." Which is putting a lot of faith in the very same people that lied their way into this.

Changing our fundamental ways of government are obviously a very sensitive issue. Even in these stressful times we might think it necessary but whos to say where it will lead us. Governments are rarely willing to give up power they already have, and what measures such as this certainly do is give them power. It almost seems as if the same pro-democracy leaders are calling for a temporary change to mild demo-authoritarianism (totalitarianism?). You know - only to defeat the enemy and win the battle. Once they're all successfully assimilated to Western ideals, things will change back to normal.

My fear is, once we've entered these demo-authoritarianism forms, the only ones who can change it back are the ones with everything to lose in doing so. That is to say - they won't. Then, go figure, we've become what we were trying to prevent.

Finally someone is going to stand up to those extremists in their country. Anyone who goes to live in a country and spreads hate speech about that country is a fucking moron and should be hanged. It's like all those mexicans who cross here and say that americans suck and call us "gringos."

that's just wrong:

quote:

Blair said Britain would outlaw Hizb ut-Tahrir, a group which says it is dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate centered on the Middle East but rejects violence.

how are these guys a threat?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

I think its about time we stoped paying them benifits and kicked them out of the UK

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Renegade have you ever heard the discourse that openly takes place by some of these individuals in reference to Western society, while they live in the midst of it mind you. Freedom of speech has always entailed responsibility in our actions, sadly until something happens, after the fact usually then people speak up. Protesting the war and presenting differing political viewpoints are one thing, standing in front of the Finsbury Park Mosque and calling for jihad, cut them down limb by limb and we side with the terrorists are all statements that leaves one dumbfounded. In a democracy there are ways to express one's opinions, advocating violence tacitly or directly through such filth, while under the guise of religous freedoms does not hold sway. All of a sudden the freedom of speech of these hatemongers becomes more important than the words they preach to spread hatred of others. What is freedom of speech without responsibility when others use that right to threaten the broader society as a whole. If you are in Britain, respect Britain. I am an immigrant myself and would never preach or endorse the deaths of other people in America no matter that I disagreed with the war in Iraq.

I agree with you but you do understand the concept of freedom of speech right? If you're for freedom of speech, you're for the freedom of expressing exactly the kind of views you hate and detest, otherwise you're not for freedom of speech. Everyone's for the views they like. And believe me man, I hate extremist and fundamentalist just as much as you do, if not more. I don't want innocent civilians being killed eigther, wheather they're American, British or Iraqi. No sane person would want that. And as a Muslim, I hate these fucking fundamentalist even more than you because of the negative image they give to Islam and Muslims, and how they justify their peverted actions using religion (btw, Islam explicitly forbids harming non-combatants, and particularly does not tolerate women, children and old people being harmed, heck, it even forbids you from destroying public property). If you read up on statistics of hate crimes against Muslims and Arabs after 9-11, you'll be surprised by the proportion and magnitude they've shot up by. Plus, I don't need to look at statistics, I've experienced this stuff directly many times. The fucking fundamentalist bastards are not only a threat to the West but also a threat to Muslims (in the West and elsewhere).

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

im still waiting for the "OMG BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH" FEELINGS OF THE ISLAM EXTREMEISTS OMG?!?!?!?"

i know some of you treehuggers are thinking it so just come out and say it already.

how is there fredom of speech if its possible to commit a 'hate crime'?