2 american dreams...as you know its not a concept for americans only obviously..its a universal thing

1. openness of society
2. freedom from institutions

then comes deciding whether you want to chase your ideal of equality n freedom or the materialistic advancement in society...is it better to have spiritual freedom or to be wealthy..it sounds like an obvious answer but in truth, in reality its a hard decision...n in such an industrial era its hard to be true.

anyways..has this dream decline from the twentieth century? or has it alwasy been an illusion?

always an ILLUSION... since the dark ages there has always been the dividing line between the rich and the poor...

openess of society apart,

there are always social restrictions in every walk of life .. here comes the oppression from the institutions..

spiritual freedom is the only possible attainable aspect of life in my opinion...

wealth is something everybody wants ... but thats only because it gives one power ... this same power and self peace is what spiritual freedom is all about... but the fact remains as long as there will be the rich, the poor and that dividing line ... there shall always be the struggle and oppression...

thats where communism scored a hit.. in theory only... lack of proper communist theories led to its fall,...sadly

well i digress

r u doing philosophy or something???

hehe just curious... :d

peace

the american dream, i believe, is actually closer to: 'get rich and get a house in the burbs.' hell the idea of 'deviance' was based on whether an individual wanted to attain these goals...freedom is quite a buzzword in the US. we arent as free as we would like to think, but the fact we are allowed to sit around and have this discussion says a lot about that as well! late/

___________________
'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

I wouldn't say that the dream has declined, rather I'd say that people seem to expect the dream to come true immediatly. America is one of the greatest places for one to achieve thier dreams. However, I think that the allusion comes from people beleiving that just because they exist in an open society they are guaranteed to be successful.
I don't you can accurately say that one of the American dreams is freedom from institutions. Without intitutions we live in a state of anarchy in which every man is his own judge and executor. Depending on who you read, either Hobbes or Locke, this state of nature is either totally afwul or just an inconvience. But either way, the political system is considered better than that of the state of nature. Institutions are a necessary part of protecting our natural rights.
Regardless of the following paragraph, success (for the most part) takes time, typically generations. Spritual success seems to be more attainable for the masses, but even sopme philosophers (Aristotle comes to mind) believe, that the best sort of life requires material goods.
The American dream is attainalbe, it's just harder to achieve than most people think it is.

quote:

Originally posted by miss_e 2 american dreams...as you know its not a concept for americans only obviously..its a universal thing 1. openness of society 2. freedom from institutions then comes deciding whether you want to chase your ideal of equality n freedom or the materialistic advancement in society...is it better to have spiritual freedom or to be wealthy..it sounds like an obvious answer but in truth, in reality its a hard decision...n in such an industrial era its hard to be true. anyways..has this dream decline from the twentieth century? or has it alwasy been an illusion?

so we meet again, miss_e. now, if i was american, what would i want.. equality and freedom (how often have i heard bush use those words in the last few months :rolleyes ir the pursuit of materialistic advancement. the former being a fleeting dream, and the latter being the American Dream. *sigh*
it is a dream based on the very constitution of the US of A; 'the freedom and right of the pursuit of wealth and happiness'. that sums it up right there. everyone in this capitalistic (not industrial) society wants to be that much richer than everyone else. what is the american dream for someone immigrating from some poor european country? to get rich and make it big in america. no one moves over here for the religion, missy.

this dream has not declined, only done the opposite. the only question any more is 'who can i fuck over to get ahead in life?' not 'what is a good thing that i could do today?'.

a decision on what sort of life you want to lead is not an easy, no. ask yourself this: can i be happy without money, possessions and assets for the rest of my life?

maybe that's an extreme question, but the lesson remains. everyone is in search of their own 'american dream', just not the one you're describing.

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Wave is to particle as zero is to one as bagpipes are to modem noises.

i'm very much offended vivid...it just happens to be that i read an excellent essay on the american dream..just wanted to hear some thoughts...youre an ass

i like good solid replies, thanks all =)

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Wave is to particle as zero is to one as bagpipes are to modem noises.

The US has been overly political in its dealings with other nations and has corrupted and betrayed many nations that cannot provide material benefit to it. I think the WTC bombings were proof that people have had it with the US meddling in their affairs and judging what is appropriate and what is not. We have been sheltered from the real media. Outside of the US and Canada, the news portrays a totally different sentiment or attitude towards the bombings. The US always takes sides with whoever it see can benefit them the most and will totally turn their back. For instance, in Serbia and Croatia. The US was way too involved and took things in their own hands way too much. They went as far as attacking the Serbs on Easter. In case you are not an Orthodox Christian, that happens to be the most significant religious holiday celebrated. It was very disrespectful and cold for the US to do this. In any case, if you ask a Serb what they think of the attack...most will tell you that those people did not deserve to die, its just because their dumb fahking leaders think they can play the role of judge when it comes to everyone elses business.

In any case...its late and my brain is much. I think I totally went off topic...oh yeah...openess of society and freedom from institutions. Its all hypocrisy. Everyone is free as long as they are in the US and all other nations for instance have to adapt to the american way. No offense to the americans here but US the US is cold and capitalistic. Profit at any cost and minimize the power of others. That is why you'll notice historically, the US has been quick to aid countries with seperatist views, just so that it could weaken the powers of the world, look like a hero but in fact weaken a millitary force without lifting a finger. Russia, the Balkan states, and the list goes on and on. Even this whole war on terrorism...its a chance to dismantle any remaining threats such as Saddam Hussein. Not to mention a way to step away from the problems in Israel and Palestein. Until now the US has clearly not understood the plight of the Palistinians and has tried to minimize the appearance of taking sides with Israel but now dealing with its 'own war' it can step back and leave this mad fahker Sharon to do what the fahk he wants. I think the US is full of shit and they are trying to instill their way of life on the world who does not necessarily want it but is forced as a result of economic dependance on this economic and millitary superpower. The only remaining superpower. I don't understan what I wrote meaning I gotta sleep...see'yall later and don't take offense...I am just pissed at the world...

I think it's a bit unfair to criticize US policy so much. Yes, we may be perceived as a cold, heartless, capitalist society, and in a lot of ways it's true. But I think you'd be remiss to say that other European nations aren't just as bad. The size of the US economy makes it more visable, thus we often get accused of things that other companies in other nations are doing. As for the plight of the Palestinians, it's not that I don't sympathize, but after having our nation attacked it's hard to be supportive of a group of people who appear to be doing the same. They have a legitimate complaint, but blowing people up and shooting at them is no way to acheive thier goals. The US can't denounce terrorism on one front, and then support it on another. That's really no way to garner support for a war.
As for us crushing goverenments that we are diametricaly opposed, Stalin was a mad man, as is Sadam Hussein so it's hard to say that the US foreign policy in regards to the U.S.S.R and Iraq. As for China, they are violating fundamental human rights on a daily basis. But I'm not going to get into this any further because I'm tired. Good night

Okay, don't turn this into another "is it good or is it bad what the americands did?" type of discussion. look thru the older threads if U want one of that type.

the american dream I believe is just a big pile of something that smells nasty. all those success stories they speak of, every smart guy in US is an "import" if U will. so he can't be called american dream, can he?

and the american dream is less about intellectual or spiritual freedom and more about money to put it down raw. and money is not something that one must majke a big hustle about. we are bound to be slaves of money because of the all-so-imperfect society in which we live. but that of getting above these standards is nothing like a dream a nation should have.

side-note: miss_e, can U send me the essay? that is, if it is on the net or on Ur comp please.

hyp

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Kultified TrancEr

Whatout the political rhetoric or biasing...

The "American Dream" isn't just about Americans.
It's a universal dream where everyone has choices, essentially freedom.
Freedom from slavery, freedom of choice, freedom to be yourself.
Foreigners come to America (Canada&US) not for the promise of a job but to be much more, but can't usually because of political reasons.
There were people that killed themselves trying to escape Eastern Germany by jumping the Berlin Wall to escape to something that we take so very much for granted; freedom.

I heard once "That the only way that you'll ever truly know yourself is be financially free and to be rid of the bondage of a job." (JOB = Just Over Broke)
I find that I agree with that statement. Think about it...what would you be doing if you didn't have to work and you had the time & money to do the things you really wanted to do?
Would you drive the same car?
Would you live in the same place as you are now?
Would you give a little more when it comes to charities?
There are a lot more important things than money but money in the right hands can do great things.

Is it possible? Absolutely! There are people out there that live like this (I know some).
Are they living the American Dream? I would say that they are.
They're not flashy, they're great people, and they get to do what they want to do because they have choices.
The big question is: Are you listening to the people that have the fruit on the tree or you are listening to everyone else?
Find someone that is living the way you want to be and emulate them.
One day, I'll have the same choices as them, and when that day comes, WOO!

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

sorry hyp! don't have the essay available on computer...
its actually a photcopy someone gave to me =(...

everyone has their own version on the american dream..
n just wanted to add that the "american" dream isnt really for the americans..its more of a universal concept..a collective unconscious that everyone's born with or develops throughout the years..i mean of course the labeling of it started in the early 1920's by the americans i think..but ya
i think its more than just the materialistic n freedom concepts...its all about ambition how to get it