Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Marines begin to acknowledge defeat in Anbar province ... big surprise
Pages (4): [1] 2 3 4 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Marines begin to acknowledge defeat in Anbar province ... big surprise

quote:

Situation in Anbar province called dire
Marines report says little U.S. military can do in western Iraqi region

By Thomas E. Ricks

Updated: 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
The chief of intelligence for the Marine Corps in Iraq recently filed an unusual secret report concluding that the prospects for securing that country's western al Anbar province are dim and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there, said several military officers and intelligence officials familiar with its contents.

The officials described Col. Pete Devlin's classified assessment of the dire state of Anbar as the first time that a senior U.S. military officer has filed so negative a report from Iraq.


One Army officer summarized it as arguing that in Anbar province, "We haven't been defeated militarily but we have been defeated politically -- and that's where wars are won and lost."

The "very pessimistic" statement, as one Marine officer called it, was dated Aug. 16 and sent to Washington shortly after that, and has been discussed across the Pentagon and elsewhere in national security circles. "I don't know if it is a shock wave, but it's made people uncomfortable," said a Defense Department official who has read the report. Like others interviewed about the report, he spoke on the condition that he not be identified by name because of the document's sensitivity.

Devlin reports that there are no functioning Iraqi government institutions in Anbar, leaving a vacuum that has been filled by the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq, which has become the province's most significant political force, said the Army officer, who has read the report. Another person familiar with the report said it describes Anbar as beyond repair; a third said it concludes that the United States has lost in Anbar.

Devlin offers a series of reasons for the situation, including a lack of U.S. and Iraqi troops, a problem that has dogged commanders since the fall of Baghdad more than three years ago, said people who have read it. These people said he reported that not only are military operations facing a stalemate, unable to extend and sustain security beyond the perimeters of their bases, but local governments in the province have also collapsed and the weak central government has almost no presence.

Those conclusions are striking because, even after four years of fighting an unexpectedly difficult war in Iraq, the U.S. military has tended to maintain an optimistic view: that its mission is difficult, but that progress is being made. Although CIA station chiefs in Baghdad have filed negative classified reports over the past several years, military intelligence officials have consistently been more positive, both in public statements and in internal reports.

Devlin, as part of the I Marine Expeditionary Force (Forward) headquarters in Iraq, has been stationed there since February, so his report isn't being dismissed as the stunned assessment of a newly arrived officer. In addition, he has the reputation of being one of the Marine Corps' best intelligence officers, with a tendency to be careful and straightforward, said another Marine intelligence officer. Hence, the report is being taken seriously as it is examined inside the military establishment and also by some CIA officials.

Not everyone interviewed about the report agrees with its glum findings. The Defense Department official, who worked in Iraq earlier this year, said his sense is that Anbar province is going to be troubled as long as U.S. troops are in Iraq. "Lawlessness is a way of life there," he said. As for the report, he said, "It's one conclusion about one area. The conclusion on al Anbar doesn't translate into a perspective on the entire country."

Intense debate
No one interviewed would quote from the report, citing its classification, and The Washington Post was not shown a copy of it. But over the past three weeks, Devlin's paper has been widely disseminated in military and intelligence circles. It is provoking intense debate over the key finding that in Anbar, the U.S. effort to clear and hold major cities and the upper Euphrates valley has failed.

The report comes at an awkward time politically, just as a midterm election campaign gets underway that promises to be in part a referendum on the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war. It also follows by just a few weeks the testimony of Army Gen. John P. Abizaid, the top U.S. commander for the Middle East, who told the Senate Armed Services Committee early last month that "it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war."

"It's hard to be optimistic right now," said one Army general who has served in Iraq. "There's a sort of critical mass of tough news," he said, with intensifying violence from the insurgency and between Sunnis and Shiites, a lack of effective Iraqi government and a growing concern that Iraq may be falling apart.


"In the analytical world, there is a real pall of gloom descending," said Jeffrey White, a former analyst of Middle Eastern militaries for the Defense Intelligence Agency, who also had been told about the pessimistic Marine report.

Devlin, who is in Iraq, could not be reached to comment. Col. Jerry Renne, a spokesman for the U.S. Central Command, said Saturday that "as a matter of policy, we don't comment on classified documents."

Anbar is a key province; it encompasses Ramadi and Fallujah, which with Baghdad pose the greatest challenge U.S. forces have faced in Iraq. It accounts for 30 percent of Iraq's land mass, encompassing the vast area from the capital to the borders of Syria and Jordan, including much of the area that has come to be known as the Sunni Triangle.


The insurgency arguably began there with fighting in Fallujah not long after U.S. troops arrived in April 2003, and fighting has since continued. Thirty-three U.S. military personnel died there in August -- 17 of them Marines, 13 from the Army and three from the Navy.

A second general who has read the report warned that he thought it was accurate as far as it went, but agreed with the defense official that Devlin's "dismal" view may not have much applicability elsewhere in Iraq. The problems facing Anbar are peculiar to that region, he and others argued.

‘Very candid, very unvarnished’
But an Army officer in Iraq familiar with the report said he considers it accurate. "It is best characterized as 'realistic,' " he said.

"From what I understand, it is very candid, very unvarnished," said retired Marine Col. G. I. Wilson. "It says the emperor has no clothes."

One view of the report offered by some Marine officers is that it is a cry for help from an area where fighting remains intense, yet which recently has been neglected by top commanders and Bush administration officials as they focus their efforts on bringing a sense of security to Baghdad. An Army unit of Stryker light armored vehicles that had been slated to replace another unit in Anbar was sent to reinforce operations in Baghdad, leaving commanders in the west scrambling to move around other troops to fill the gap.

Devlin's report is a work of intelligence analysis, not of policy prescription, so it does not try to suggest what, if anything, can be done to fix the situation. It is not clear what the implications would be for U.S. forces if Devlin's view is embraced by top commanders elsewhere in Iraq. U.S. officials are wary of simply abandoning the Sunni parts of Iraq, for fear that they could become havens for al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

One possible solution would be to try to turn over the province to Iraqi forces, but that could increase the risk of a full-blown civil war, because Shiite-dominated forces might begin slaughtering Sunnis, while Sunni-dominated units might simply begin acting independently of the central government.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14757615/page/2/


This would appear to be a bad weekend for the bush administration given the findings of the Senate intelligence committee. Stay the course!!!


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Sep-11-2006 05:27  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

But at least Iraq's nascent democracy is flourishing, right?

quote:
BAGHDAD — A parliamentary vote on a Shiite proposal to grant greater autonomy to Iraq's provinces was scuttled Sunday when Sunni Arab legislators, fearing it would divide and weaken the central government, threatened a walkout.

Shiite Muslim lawmakers say they want to add a provision to Iraq's nascent constitution that will allow them to replicate the level of autonomy that the northern region of Kurdistan enjoys.

"The session was postponed because we lacked a quorum," said Nasser Saadi, a lawmaker with the ruling Shiite alliance.

Under the plan, Iraq would be divided into federal regions whose borders largely would fall along ethnic or sectarian lines. Sunni Arabs complain that such partitioning would leave them with resource-poor areas in the west, such as Al Anbar province, whereas Kurds and Shiites would lay claim to vast oil reserves in the north and south.

[...]

Shiite legislators said they would try to vote again on the plan in coming weeks, and noted that their proposal aimed to destroy the legacy of Saddam Hussein, whose Sunni Arab regime centralized government authority in Baghdad.

[...]

Meanwhile, authorities in the predominantly Kurdish city of Mandali, 75 miles northeast of the capital, ordered Iraqi flags removed from government buildings. Kurdistan regional President Massoud Barzani started a national debate when he prohibited Kurdish government buildings from flying the new Iraqi flag, a variation on a design used during Hussein's rule.

[...]

Authorities on Sunday reported at least 34 deaths in insurgent and sectarian violence across Iraq.

In Baghdad, a car bomb exploded near a police patrol, killing an officer and injuring seven people. A bomb hidden inside a nylon bag exploded near a cellphone shop, killing five people and injuring 17 others.

In Baqubah, 35 miles north of Baghdad, a shootout between Sunni and Shiite gunmen left at least five people dead and 14 injured.

And in two separate incidents, gunmen killed a police general and two bodyguards, and two brothers who were police intelligence agents. Baqubah authorities said there were at least 20 sectarian killings over the weekend.


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ack=1&cset=true

Can someone please tell me how a country this destabalised in the Middle-East could have possibly made the world safer? Or has the Bush administration abandoned that rationale now? (I think somewhere in between "stay the course" and "adapt to win" I began to lose track of their rhetorical fads.)


___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

Old Post Sep-11-2006 19:48  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Renegade Click here to Send Renegade a Private Message Add Renegade to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Purple
. . . . . . . . .



Registered: Jan 2005
Location: . . . . . . . . .

All this defeat is/was not possible without Anbar people's will to help 'terrorists' in Anbar province.


___________________
___________________

Old Post Sep-11-2006 23:55 
Click Here to See the Profile for Purple Click here to Send Purple a Private Message Add Purple to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

whats the alternative to 'stay the course' though?


___________________

Old Post Sep-12-2006 01:14  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for pkcRAISTLIN Click here to Send pkcRAISTLIN a Private Message Add pkcRAISTLIN to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas
Re: Marines begin to acknowledge defeat in Anbar province ... big surprise

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Stay the course!!!

you're goddamn right!

Old Post Sep-12-2006 01:23  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Q5echo Click here to Send Q5echo a Private Message Add Q5echo to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Can someone please tell me how a country this destabalised in the Middle-East could have possibly made the world safer?

no, but i can tell you how a stabilized country can make the world safer. i don't have to tell you that, do i?

quote:
Or has the Bush administration abandoned that rationale now? (I think somewhere in between "stay the course" and "adapt to win" I began to lose track of their rhetorical fads.)

i wouldn't focus so much on the rhetorical fads.

Old Post Sep-12-2006 01:29  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Q5echo Click here to Send Q5echo a Private Message Add Q5echo to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
josh4
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: New York City

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
no, but i can tell you how a stabilized country can make the world safer. i don't have to tell you that, do i?

Yes, a stable Iraq could have the chance of making the world safer. But you're missing the point of the two major sources in this thread: A stable Iraq does not seem likely.

Old Post Sep-12-2006 04:57  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for josh4 Click here to Send josh4 a Private Message Add josh4 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by josh4
A stable Iraq does not seem likely.

to me it seems inevitable.

Old Post Sep-12-2006 05:03  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Q5echo Click here to Send Q5echo a Private Message Add Q5echo to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
whats the alternative to 'stay the course' though?


'Stay the course' advocates have been chiming the same tune since 2003 in the face of critics who advocated a number of different strategies such as sending more troops to provide more security to civilians, aggressively warding off political catastrophes such as torture by bringing transparent accountability, diligently eliminating corruption with Iraqi funds, etc. The alternative to 'stay the course' didn't necessarily have to be withdraw the troops. However, the longer we continue this retarded, unadaptive 'stay the course' strategy the more inevitable withdrawal becomes as the only alternative.

But you tell me, should we 'stay the course' when staying the course will continue to result in failures whereby our chances to secure the strongest insurgent area are "dim and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there"?

The continual loss of American lives and countless more billions of dollars down the drain towards a lost effort should not be an acceptable situation to any sensical individual. At least not any indivdual that has compassion for their fellow countrymen or has the business savy to demand competance for their tax dollars.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Sep-12-2006 05:18  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
'Stay the course' advocates have been chiming the same tune since 2003 in the face of critics who advocated a number of different strategies such as sending more troops to provide more security to civilians, aggressively warding off political catastrophes such as torture by bringing transparent accountability, diligently eliminating corruption with Iraqi funds, etc. The alternative to 'stay the course' didn't necessarily have to be withdraw the troops. However, the longer we continue this retarded, unadaptive 'stay the course' strategy the more inevitable withdrawal becomes as the only alternative.


ahh, well thats where we agree. i kindve assumed that there was stay & leave as the only two options. as for trying new strategies, well of course they should be looking at each and every option for stabilising the country. but i dont automatically think that because things are bad now they will always be so.

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
But you tell me, should we 'stay the course' when staying the course will continue to result in failures whereby our chances to secure the strongest insurgent area are "dim and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there"?

The continual loss of American lives and countless more billions of dollars down the drain towards a lost effort should not be an acceptable situation to any sensical individual. At least not any indivdual that has compassion for their fellow countrymen or has the business savy to demand competance for their tax dollars.


yes we should. all nations that were a part of the coalition of the willing have an obligation to see this through as long as it takes. remember, even had the US not invaded, any dictatorship is prone to civil war once a power vacuum develops. i hardly think the current state of affairs can be 100% laid at the feet of the americans, an iraqi conflict was inevitable whether after saddam, after saddam's son, or after saddam's second cousin twice removed loses power

i really dont think pulling out and leaving the iraqi people to "sort out their differences" is a very honourable option in the slightest. i must say i think the billions of dollars and the loss of american personnel is of a (distant) secondary concern when compared to the fate of a nation.

until someone can show me that the foreign presence is actually making things worse, i will always argue against leaving as i worry as to what might occur without the buffer (as impotent as they might be) between warring parties.


___________________

Old Post Sep-12-2006 05:29  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for pkcRAISTLIN Click here to Send pkcRAISTLIN a Private Message Add pkcRAISTLIN to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
to me it seems inevitable.


Hmmm... care to elaborate on that?

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
whats the alternative to 'stay the course' though?



___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

Old Post Sep-12-2006 05:33  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Renegade Click here to Send Renegade a Private Message Add Renegade to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
The alternative to 'stay the course' didn't necessarily have to be withdraw the troops. However, the longer we continue this retarded, unadaptive 'stay the course' strategy the more inevitable withdrawal becomes as the only alternative.

first off you, occrider, do not have an alternative. if you do, spit it out. second you do not know what we do, or in your words, are not doing to adapt. so you cannot determine what is or isn't the only alternative.

quote:
But you tell me, should we 'stay the course' when staying the course will continue to result in failures whereby our chances to secure the strongest insurgent area are "dim and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there"?

strategically, yes. tactically, no. and this one is going to be hard for you to swallow being where and who you are right now, but some fights are just hard to win. i'm not here knock you about being critical. hell, i encourage it. however, i don't think this leaked report gives gives anyone any licence to be cynical about Iraq as a whole.

quote:
The continual loss of American lives and countless more billions of dollars down the drain towards a lost effort should not be an acceptable situation to any sensical individual. At least not any indivdual that has compassion for their fellow countrymen or has the business savy to demand competance for their tax dollars.

your right, but what does that have to do with success? and i know you didn't just call your military incompetent.

Old Post Sep-12-2006 05:42  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Q5echo Click here to Send Q5echo a Private Message Add Q5echo to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Marines begin to acknowledge defeat in Anbar province ... big surprise
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (4): [1] 2 3 4 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackAwesome song but can't ID [2004] [1]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackPaul van Dyk - "People" [2003]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:49.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!