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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
The Lancet: Iraq Death Toll Hits 600,000

quote:
BAGHDAD, Oct. 10 — A team of American and Iraqi public health researchers has estimated that 600,000 civilians have died in violence across Iraq since the 2003 American invasion, the highest estimate ever for the toll of the war here.

The figure breaks down to about 15,000 violent deaths a month, a number that is quadruple the one for July given by Iraqi government hospitals and the morgue in Baghdad and published last month in a United Nations report in Iraq. That month was the highest for Iraqi civilian deaths since the American invasion.

But it is an estimate and not a precise count, and researchers acknowledged a margin of error that ranged from 426,369 to 793,663 deaths.

It is the second study by researchers from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. It uses samples of casualties from Iraqi households to extrapolate an overall figure of 601,027 Iraqis dead from violence between March 2003 and July 2006.

The findings of the previous study, published in The Lancet, a British medical journal, in 2004, had been criticized as high, in part because of its relatively narrow sampling of about 1,000 families, and because it carried a large margin of error.

The new study is more representative, its researchers said, and the sampling is broader: it surveyed 1,849 Iraqi families in 47 different neighborhoods across Iraq. The selection of geographical areas in 18 regions across Iraq was based on population size, not on the level of violence, they said.

The study comes at a sensitive time for the Iraqi government, which is under pressure from American officials to take action against militias driving the sectarian killings.

In the last week of September, the government barred the central morgue in Baghdad and the Health Ministry — the two main sources of information for civilian deaths — from releasing figures to the news media. Now, only the government is allowed to release figures. It has not provided statistics for September, though a spokesman said Tuesday that it would.

The American military has disputed the Iraqi figures, saying that they are far higher than the actual number of deaths from the insurgency and sectarian violence, in part because they include natural deaths and deaths from ordinary crime, like domestic violence.

But the military has not released figures of its own, giving only percentage comparisons. For example, it cited a 46 percent drop in the murder rate in Baghdad in August from July as evidence of the success of its recent sweeps. At a briefing on Monday, the military’s spokesman declined to characterize the change for September.

The military has released rough counts of average numbers of Iraqis killed and wounded in a quarterly accounting report mandated by Congress. In the report, “Measuring Stability and Security in Iraq,” daily averages of dead and wounded Iraqi civilians, soldiers and police officers rose from 26 a day in 2004 to almost 120 a day in August 2006.

The study uses a method similar to that employed in estimates of casualty figures in other conflict areas like Darfur and Congo. It sought to measure the number of deaths that occurred as a result of the war.

It argues that absolute numbers of dead, like morgue figures, could not give a full picture of the “burden of conflict on an entire population,” because they were often incomplete.

The mortality rate before the American invasion was about 5.5 people per 1,000 per year, the study found. That rate rose to 19.8 deaths per 1,000 people in the year ending in June.

Gunshots were the largest cause of death, the study said, at 56 percent of all violent deaths, while car bombs accounted for about 13 percent. Deaths caused by the American military declined as an overall percentage from March 2003 to June 2006.

Violent deaths have soared since the American invasion, but the rise is in part a matter of spotty statistical history. Under Saddam Hussein, the state had a monopoly on killing, and the deaths of thousands of Iraqi Shiites and Kurds that it caused were never counted.

While the near collapse of the Iraqi state makes precise record-keeping difficult, authorities have made considerable progress toward tracking death figures. In 2004, when the Johns Hopkins study was first released, authorities were still compiling deaths on an ad hoc basis. But by this year, they were being provided regularly.

Iraqi authorities say morgue counts are more accurate than is generally thought. Iraqis prefer to bury their dead immediately, and hurry bodies of loved ones to plots near mosques or, in the case of Shiites, in sacred burial sites. Even so, they have strong incentives to register the death with a central morgue or hospital in order to obtain a death certificate, required at highway checkpoints, by cemetery workers, and for government pensions. Death certificates are counted in the statistics kept by morgues around the country.

The most recent United Nations figure, 3,009 Iraqis killed in violence across the country in August, was compiled by statistics from Baghdad’s central morgue, and from hospitals and morgues countrywide. It assumes a daily rate of about 97.

The figure is not exhaustive. A police official at Yarmouk Hospital in Baghdad who spoke on the condition of anonymity said he had seen nationwide counts provided to the hospital that indicated as many as 200 people a day were dying.

Gilbert Burnham, the principle author of the study, said the figures showed an increase of deaths over time that was similar to that of another civilian casualty project, Iraq Body Count, which collates deaths reported in the news media, and even to that of the military. But even Iraq Body Count puts the maximum number of deaths at just short of 49,000.

As far as skepticism about the death count, he said that counts made by journalists and others focused disproportionately on Baghdad, and that death rates were higher elsewhere.

“We found deaths all over the country,” he said. Baghdad was an area of medium violence in the country, he said. The provinces of Diyala and Salahuddin, north of Baghdad, and Anbar to the west, all had higher death rates than the capital.

Statistics experts in the United States who were able to review the study said the methods used by the interviewers looked legitimate.

Robert Blendon, director of the Harvard Program on Public Opinion and Health and Social Policy, said interviewing urban dwellers chosen at random was “the best of what you can expect in a war zone.”

But he said the number of deaths in the families interviewed — 547 in the post-invasion period versus 82 in a similar period before the invasion — was too few to extrapolate up to more than 600,000 deaths across the country.

Donald Berry, chairman of biostatistics at M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, was even more troubled by the study, which he said had “a tone of accuracy that’s just inappropriate.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/w...gin&oref=slogin

The Lancet, if you remember, published a similar study a while ago placing the death toll at 100,000 and it was largely dismissed for its shoddy sampling and statistical inference. This study, however, seems to be much larger in scope and much better attested to by independently reached statistics:

quote:
The survey was conducted between May 20 and July 10 by eight Iraqi physicians organized through Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. They visited 1,849 randomly selected households that had an average of seven members each. One person in each household was asked about deaths in the 14 months before the invasion and in the period after.

The interviewers asked for death certificates 87 percent of the time; when they did, more than 90 percent of households produced certificates.

According to the survey results, Iraq's mortality rate in the year before the invasion was 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people; in the post-invasion period it was 13.3 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The difference between these rates was used to calculate "excess deaths."

Of the 629 deaths reported, 87 percent occurred after the invasion. A little more than 75 percent of the dead were men, with a greater male preponderance after the invasion. For violent post-invasion deaths, the male-to-female ratio was 10-to-1, with most victims between 15 and 44 years old.

Gunshot wounds caused 56 percent of violent deaths, with car bombs and other explosions causing 14 percent, according to the survey results. Of the violent deaths that occurred after the invasion, 31 percent were caused by coalition forces or airstrikes, the respondents said.

Burnham said that the estimate of Iraq's pre-invasion death rate -- 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people -- found in both of the Hopkins surveys was roughly the same estimate used by the CIA and the U.S. Census Bureau. He said he believes that attests to the accuracy of his team's results.

[...]

Ronald Waldman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University who worked at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for many years, called the survey method "tried and true," and added that "this is the best estimate of mortality we have."

This viewed was echoed by Sarah Leah Whitson, an official of Human Rights Watch in New York, who said, "We have no reason to question the findings or the accuracy" of the survey.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...s_world/mideast

quote:
Paul Bolton, a public-health researcher at Boston University who has reviewed the study, called the methodology "excellent" and said it was standard procedure in a wide range of studies he has worked on. "You can't be sure of the exact number, but you can be quite sure that you are in the right ballpark," he said.


http://online.wsj.com/public/articl...ff_main_tff_top

Here's the study in full if anyone with a better grasp of maths than me wants to poke holes in it:

http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/i...73606694919.pdf

It goes without saying, but this is seriously disturbing if it's anywhere near accurate. Even Iraqbodycount.net places the civilian death toll at "only" 50,000: the minimum estimates for this study are 9 times that amount...


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Old Post Oct-11-2006 20:14  Australia
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada



ITS OK!!! According to some folks on this forum, its well worth the democracy that is being built in Iraq, which I laugh at. If you are an Iraqi journalist, and you'll write criticising American forces, you'll be thrown in jail. HAIL TO DEMOCRACY!

More innocent Iraqis, mainly women and children, have been killed since 1991 than all people from all kinds of weapons of mass destruction.

HOORAY ... Iraq's terrorist regime that helped shelter and fund 9/11 attackers is gone for good(sarcasm)! Iraq was such a huge threat to the world, they would've attacked and capture the entire Middle East, annihilated them with terrible terrible weapons. Iraq posed a huge threat to world security (sarcasm again) ... Hail to emperor Bush! They found the weapons of mass destruction, stopped the nuclear holocaust (that was being planned in Hussein's dreams), Iraq is mostly rebuilt and more people have jobs, security, lots of money and stability. Heck, I'd be able to walk down the street saying I am from North America and I'd be completely safe!


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Old Post Oct-11-2006 20:37  Canada
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

Freedom isn't cheap. It'll cost you an arm, a leg, maybe your life ... times 600,000.


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Old Post Oct-11-2006 21:46  United States
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jonSun
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Chicago CTA #77

500 a day.?


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Old Post Oct-11-2006 21:49  United States
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

yeah, thats pretty fucked. but id like to point out that whenever there was a power vacuum in iraq (and it would have happened eventually) i dont see the figures being that much different. well, asides from the civilians the americans have killed of course


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Old Post Oct-11-2006 22:16  Australia
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
vaccuum


HAHA, I corrected you, dude!

Old Post Oct-11-2006 22:23 
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

haha. im sorry to do this to you metalgear

quote:

vac-u-um

–noun 1. a space entirely devoid of matter.
2. an enclosed space from which matter, esp. air, has been partially removed so that the matter or gas remaining in the space exerts less pressure than the atmosphere (opposed to plenum).
3. the state or degree of exhaustion in such an enclosed space.
4. a space not filled or occupied; emptiness; void: The loss left a vacuum in his heart.
5. a vacuum cleaner or sweeper.
6. Physics. a state of lowest energy in a quantum field theory.
–adjective 7. of, pertaining to, employing, or producing a vacuum.
8. (of a hollow container) partly exhausted of gas or air.
9. pertaining to a device or process that makes use of a vacuum to accomplish a desired task.
10. noting or pertaining to canning or packaging in which air is removed from the container to prevent deterioration of the contents.
–verb (used with object) 11. to use a vacuum cleaner on; clean with a vacuum cleaner: to vacuum rugs.
12. to treat with any vacuum device, as a vacuum drier.
–verb (used without object) 13. to use a vacuum cleaner: to vacuum in the dining room.


link


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Old Post Oct-11-2006 22:55  Australia
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas
Re: The Lancet: Iraq Death Toll Hits 600,000

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade

Here's the study in full if anyone with a better grasp of maths than me wants to poke holes in it:

http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/i...73606694919.pdf

It goes without saying, but this is seriously disturbing if it's anywhere near accurate. Even Iraqbodycount.net places the civilian death toll at "only" 50,000: the minimum estimates for this study are 9 times that amount...


I'll go ahead and try and poke holes at this.
It strucks odd because it really doesn't pass the common sense test.

Firstly, using the same methodolgy in 2004 they got a different conclusion (100,000 extra deaths as you mentioned). The difference was back then they used 33 clusters with 30 households, and in this study they used 47 clusters with 40 households.

I am not sure exactly where they got pre-invasion data from, but I assume they just asked the same people they surveyed.

The interesting thing here really is that they attribute all the non-violent death discrepancy to the Iraq war. Yet they try to dismiss them off the bat by using a false analysis (all deaths by cause) instead of the amount of death.

I urge you all to look at Table 2: Pre-Invasion and post-invasion deaths by age and cause.

You will find some very interesting thins, for instance:
Did you know that the cancer rate doubled, primarly in women, after the invasion? 15 people were reported to have died of cancer before the war, but 33 after.

Chronic Illness also doubled. Yet death due to old age grew from 8 occurences in the sample before the invasion to 19 after.

One elderly person was killed by airstrike before the invasion and one was killed by an explosion. Crime, or violent deaths aside from these two incidences apparently never existed in pre-Invasion Iraq.

I guess it is obvious, the war makes people older and therefore kills them. In fact when you add up all non-violent deaths before the invasion 80 247-to 247, you have a little more than a 300% increase in non-violent death after the invasion.

Why? They do not accurately address this question.

My answer, is most likely that people remember more recent things (even death) more vividly then things farther in the past.
Also, you maybe having a "baby-bomber" like generation in Iraq who's time is expiring that happens to coincide with after the invasion; explaining the high instances of cancer, old age, and heart disease stroke.

Anyway my take on it, is that you can't really state too much on it, because there seems to be a huge problem with the pre-war data for some reason. And until this can be explained, one should be cautious of the larger conclusions from this study.


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Old Post Oct-11-2006 23:02  Israel
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada



Did 500 people a day die under Hussein because of Hussein? I doubt it, but he was terrible too.

Its a choice between the two evils .... poor Iraqis, jammed between crappy politics that are killing them in large numbers.


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Old Post Oct-12-2006 00:55  Canada
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Freedom isn't cheap. It'll cost you an arm, a leg, maybe your life ... times 600,000.


Yes, but whats going on in Iraq right now, I wouldn't call it freedom. I'd call it freedom to kill whomever you want whenever you want wherever!


___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Old Post Oct-12-2006 01:06  Canada
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium


Did 500 people a day die under Hussein because of Hussein? I doubt it, but he was terrible too.

Its a choice between the two evils .... poor Iraqis, jammed between crappy politics that are killing them in large numbers.


There's no contest...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...Saddam%27s_Iraq


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Old Post Oct-12-2006 01:08  Canada
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

Magnetonium, this guy is more of a moonbat than most moonbats...

But considering your arguments lately, you're two peas in a pod...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Oct-12-2006 at 02:17

Old Post Oct-12-2006 01:44  Canada
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