Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > intelligently designed fish
Pages (7): [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
Boomer187
Spicy Hotdog



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: USA
intelligently designed fish

Lets see what you evolutionary extremist think of this. Proof our intelligent designer created a creature that could go from water to land. BAM, bye bye evolutionary theory, hello intelligent design.




Source

quote:

Missing link crawls out of muck


Newly found species fills evolutionary gap between fish and land animals
By Steve Bradt
FAS Communications

Paleontologists have discovered fossils of a species that provides the missing evolutionary link between fish and the first animals that walked out of water onto land about 375 million years ago. The newly found species, Tiktaalik roseae, has a skull, a neck, ribs, and parts of the limbs that are similar to four-legged animals known as tetrapods, as well as fishlike features such as a primitive jaw, fins, and scales.


These fossils, found on Ellesmere Island in Arctic Canada, are the most compelling examples yet of an animal that was at the cusp of the fish-tetrapod transition. The new find is described by scientists at Harvard University, the University of Chicago, and the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia in two related research articles highlighted on the cover of the April 6 issue of Nature.


"This previously unknown, extinct animal represents the beginning of the emergence of fish onto land, and the evolutionary transformation of fins into limbs," says Farish A. Jenkins Jr., Alexander Agassiz Professor of Zoology at Harvard and curator of mammalogy and vertebrate paleontology at Harvard's Museum of Comparative Zoology. "The skeletal material is three-dimensional and exquisitely preserved; most material this old tends to be flattened or otherwise distorted. The geometry of the limb joints clearly indicates that segments of the fin could move independently. The 'shoulder' and 'elbow' could flex, and the 'wrist' could extend, converting the fin into postures appropriate to support the body from below and propel the animal on land."


"Tiktaalik blurs the boundary between fish and land-living animal both in terms of its anatomy and its way of life," says Neil Shubin, professor and chairman of organismal biology at the University of Chicago.


Tiktaalik was a predator with sharp teeth, a crocodilelike head, and a flattened body. The well-preserved skeletal material from several specimens, ranging from 4 to 9 feet long, enabled the researchers to study the mosaic pattern of evolutionary change in different parts of the skeleton as fish evolved into land animals.


"Human comprehension of the history of life on Earth is taking a major leap forward," says H. Richard Lane, director of sedimentary geology and paleobiology at the National Science Foundation. "These exciting discoveries are providing fossil 'Rosetta Stones' for a deeper understanding of this evolutionary milestone - fish to land-roaming tetrapods."


One of the most important aspects of this discovery is the illumination of the fin-to-limb transition. In a second paper in the journal, the scientists describe in depth how the pectoral fin of the fish serves as the origin of the tetrapod limb.
fossil discovery site
At the fossil quarry on Ellesmere Island, jackets of plaster of Paris and burlap encase fossils, ensuring the integrity of the specimens during shipment back to the laboratory. Harvard's Farish A. Jenkins Jr. is standing. Stephen M. Gatesy of Brown University is working on the right. In the foreground is Harvard grad student Corwin Sullivan.


Embedded in the fin of Tiktaalik are bones that compare to the upper arm, forearm, and primitive parts of the hand of land-living animals.


"Most of the major joints of the fin are functional in this fish," Shubin says. "The shoulder, elbow, and even parts of the wrist are already there and working in ways similar to the earliest land-living animals."


At the time that Tiktaalik lived, what is now the Canadian Arctic region was part of a landmass that straddled the equator. It had a subtropical climate, much like the Amazon basin today. The species lived in the small streams of this delta system. According to Shubin, the ecological setting in which these animals evolved provided an environment conducive to the transition to life on land.


"We knew that the rocks on Ellesmere Island offered a glimpse into the right time period and the right ancient environments to provide the potential for finding fossils documenting this important evolutionary transition," says Ted Daeschler of the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia. "Finding the fossils within this remote, rugged terrain, however, required a lot of time and effort."


The nature of the deposits where the fossils were found and the skeletal structure of Tiktaalik suggests that the animal lived in shallow water and perhaps even out of the water for short periods.


"Out of water, these fish encountered gravitational forces very different from the relative buoyancy they enjoyed in an aquatic setting," Jenkins says. "Restructuring of the body to withstand these forces is evident in the ribs, which are plate-like and overlap like shingles, forming a rigid supporting mechanism for the trunk."


Jenkins adds: "Fish feeding in water readily orient the mouth toward food by deftly maneuvering the entire body; the head is rigidly attached to the trunk by bones linking the skull and shoulder girdle, and thus fish have no 'neck.' The challenge of whole-body maneuvers on land was met by freeing the skull from its bony connections to the trunk, thus developing a true neck, which in turn allows the head to move independently of the body."


The new fossils were collected as a result of four summers of exploration in Canada's Nunavut Territory, less than 900 miles from the North Pole, by paleontologists from Harvard, the Academy of Natural Sciences, and the University of Chicago. Although the team has amassed a diverse assemblage of fossil fish, Shubin said, the discovery of these transitional fossils in 2004 was a vindication of the team's persistence.


The scientists asked the Nunavut people to propose a formal scientific name for the new species. The Elders Council of Nunavut, the Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, suggested "Tiktaalik" (tic-TAH-lick) - the word in the Inuktitut language for "a large, shallow-water fish."


The scientists worked through the Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth in Nunavut to collaborate with the local Inuit communities. All fossils are the property of the people of Nunavut and will be returned to Canada after they are studied.


The team depended on the maps of the Geological Survey of Canada. The researchers received permits from the Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth of the Government of Nunavut, and logistical support in the form of helicopters and bush planes from the Polar Continental Shelf Project of Natural Resources Canada. The National Science Foundation, the National Geographic Society, and the Putnam Expeditionary Fund of Harvard University, along with an anonymous donor, also helped fund the project.

Old Post Apr-06-2006 23:52  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Boomer187 Click here to Send Boomer187 a Private Message Visit Boomer187's homepage! Add Boomer187 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Sunsnail
Global Moderator



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:
Re: intelligently designed fish

quote:
Originally posted by Boomer187
Lets see what you evolutionary extremist think of this. Proof our intelligent designer created a creature that could go from water to land. BAM, bye bye evolutionary theory, hello intelligent design.




Source


neat. progress is very neat. I'd like some pics though!

Old Post Apr-07-2006 00:13 
Click Here to See the Profile for Sunsnail Click here to Send Sunsnail a Private Message Add Sunsnail to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City
Re: intelligently designed fish

quote:
Originally posted by Boomer187
Lets see what you evolutionary extremist think of this. Proof our intelligent designer created a creature that could go from water to land. BAM, bye bye evolutionary theory, hello intelligent design.




Source


I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

But if you're actually being serious, I'm quite intrigued by your conclusion. Can you explain to me how this transitional fossil find which was predicted by evolutionary theory between a fish-like organism, Panderichthys, and distinctly-shaped tetrapod organisms, Acanthostega and Ichthyostega, somehow negates evolutionary theory in any way?

And then can you explain how it somehow bolsters Intelligent Design, a theory that continues to have no testable, valid, or falsifiable hypothesis with no predictive value to the scientific community? The articles and commentary by known evolutionary biologists and researchers that I've read somehow don't seem to see how this finding somehow shoots down their life's work.

Again, if you're being serious, I'm interested if you could shed some light on that please.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Apr-07-2006 02:29  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Moongoose
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Celje, Slovenia

Just a thought i had for a while, not really that important in this discussion but still...

I find it funny how creationists think that since we havent found a transitiona fossil yet evolution must be wrong and therefore creation (ID) must be right. I mean like finding that precise fossil you need is easy stuff. I just sat down to study and i cant find my notes that i made yesterday and all Im talking about is a bunch of paper hidden somewhere in my 4m x 3m room, not a fossil that could be hidden anywhere on the face of the planet, hell it could be on the bottom of the deepest ocean where we will not be able to get to it for another thousand years but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist, just that we havent found it yet


___________________

Old Post Apr-07-2006 08:22  Slovenia
Click Here to See the Profile for Moongoose Click here to Send Moongoose a Private Message Add Moongoose to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
skot_e
________



Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Adelaide

pic
more As for ID - don't waste my

Old Post Apr-07-2006 10:27  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for skot_e Click here to Send skot_e a Private Message Add skot_e to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
Re: Re: intelligently designed fish

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

I think he was being sarcastic, altho you never know with some people!!

Old Post Apr-07-2006 11:57  England
Click Here to See the Profile for George Smiley Click here to Send George Smiley a Private Message Add George Smiley to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
lateforwork
Junior tranceaddict



Registered: Apr 2006
Location: P-Town, the U.S. of A.

So, does it taste like fish or chicken?

Old Post Apr-07-2006 19:14  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for lateforwork Click here to Send lateforwork a Private Message Add lateforwork to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
tiesto14
Let The Music Play



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: The Palladium New York City
Re: Re: intelligently designed fish

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

But if you're actually being serious, I'm quite intrigued by your conclusion. Can you explain to me how this transitional fossil find which was predicted by evolutionary theory between a fish-like organism, Panderichthys, and distinctly-shaped tetrapod organisms, Acanthostega and Ichthyostega, somehow negates evolutionary theory in any way?

And then can you explain how it somehow bolsters Intelligent Design, a theory that continues to have no testable, valid, or falsifiable hypothesis with no predictive value to the scientific community? The articles and commentary by known evolutionary biologists and researchers that I've read somehow don't seem to see how this finding somehow shoots down their life's work.

Again, if you're being serious, I'm interested if you could shed some light on that please.



i wish i could talk like you


___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

Old Post Apr-07-2006 19:39  Bahamas
Click Here to See the Profile for tiesto14 Click here to Send tiesto14 a Private Message Visit tiesto14's homepage! Add tiesto14 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

quote:

THE discovery in Australia of a 400 million-year-old fish fossil has rewritten history books by offering a new insight into how how fish evolved into land animals.

The skeleton of the Gogonasus fish from the Devonian period was uncovered during a Museum Victoria expedition in Western Australia's remote Kimberley region last year.

Preserved in three-dimensional form, the fossil is the first complete and perfect skeleton of the types of fish that gave rise to the first land animals.

The Gogonasus fossil shows the ancient marine fish had large holes in its skull for breathing, and also had muscular front fins with well-formed limbs like human arms.

Dr John Long, who led the expedition, said the transition from a fish living in water to an air-breathing land animal with arms and legs was one of the most dramatic transitions in the history of evolution.

"(The fossil) shows surprisingly advanced features for a fish that we never dreamed of before in terms of its structure and anatomy," Dr Long said.

He said it took him four months to extract the skeleton from its shell.

"This is the first one ever discovered that is three-dimensional and perfect and because of that its anatomy is revealed in far greater detail than ever seen before," he said.

"If you wanted to trace human ancestry back to the beginnings of the land animals, you can now trace it back even further to this fish.

"So, we're pushing the nodes of the origins of tetropods back even further than we've previously known."

The fossil was discovered by expedition member Tim Senden of the Australian National University (ANU) during the Australian Research Council-funded expedition in July last year.

Dr Senden, who was on his first field trip, said he initially didn't realise the significance of the find.

"I was the lucky one that picked up the right rock - it was the thrill of a lifetime," he said.

Museum Victoria's scientific paleontological team analysed the fish fossil using a new software technology developed by Dr Senden, which allows fossils to be analysed in unprecedented detail.

The fossil is on display at Museum Victoria until November 19


why would god design all these "missing link" creatures, when he couldve just as easily just made man straight off the bat, and saved a lot of time?


___________________

Old Post Oct-19-2006 04:26  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for pkcRAISTLIN Click here to Send pkcRAISTLIN a Private Message Add pkcRAISTLIN to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

they find one skeleton, and call it the missing link between all land animals and fish? Where are all the other missing links? SHouldn't they be finding innumerable hybrid species? And why are the hybrids so convienantly extict?

Old Post Oct-19-2006 11:51  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
Click Here to See the Profile for Krypton Click here to Send Krypton a Private Message Visit Krypton's homepage! Add Krypton to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
why would god design all these "missing link" creatures, when he couldve just as easily just made man straight off the bat, and saved a lot of time?


Thats the thing, I've never seen 'intelligent design' discussed as any kind of credible theory, sort of always been one of those 'US' things like Mormons and Scientology.
No one else would touch it!

edit- lol Mormons...

Last edited by Lilith on Oct-19-2006 at 15:37

Old Post Oct-19-2006 13:11 
Click Here to See the Profile for Lilith Click here to Send Lilith a Private Message Add Lilith to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

quote:
Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
they find one skeleton, and call it the missing link between all land animals and fish? Where are all the other missing links? SHouldn't they be finding innumerable hybrid species? Where are all the other missing links?


Here they are. Couting about 10 "transitional" species there between fish and amphibians, not including the one in the OP:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/transit.htm

Also, I read this on another forum a couple of days ago. Please read it:

quote:
Pick one:

1) There is no such thing as a transitional fossil.
2) All fossils are transitional.

As impossible as it may sound, both statements are equally valid, at the same time, dependent only on what you consider a transitional fossil.

It is important to recognize that there is no such thing as a distinct species in nature. Species, races, geni (gena? genii? help me out here guys.) etc. are all concepts defined by humans. Biology presents us with a continuum of ever changing creatures and we just pick certain points on the line of evolution of a "species" and give those different names.

So, there is nothing species about a "transitional fossil". Imagine a color spectrum. There is no real difference between the color red and the color between orange and red. Orange-red is a transitional color that lies between orange and red. But at the same time, orange is a transitional color that lies between orange-red and yellow-orange. The only difference between proper colors and transitional colors is that we defined some to be proper and call the rest transitional.

So, if you are looking for a transitional fossil that's half a fish and half a mammal (to exaggerate), you won't see that. But that is not what evolution predicts. You will see a very long list of fossils starting with fish and after countless generations (well not countless, i just have no idea what the actual number is. Some of the biologists here will be able to tell) you arrive at a mammal. But the step from each generation to the next is very very small, and every generation is a transitional that lies between it's parent and offspring generations.


quote:
And why are the hybrids so convienantly extict?


For the same reason 99.9% of the species that ever walked this earth are extinct: they weren't fit to survive in the environment they eventually found themselves in.

quote:
Originally posted by Lilith
one of those 'US' things like Morons and Scientology.


Best typo ever.


___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

Old Post Oct-19-2006 14:19  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Renegade Click here to Send Renegade a Private Message Add Renegade to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > intelligently designed fish
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (7): [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackCommercial Trance [2009] [0]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackCarlo Dall'Anese & Gui Boratto - "Beautiful Song" (Original Mix) [2008]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:01.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!