Why on earth would a hardware mixer make your tracks sound better, unless you are recording from certain types of external sources (ex. mics)?

Hi. I recently just started doing analog summing.. Back in the day I use to mix using an analog mixer, than moved to mixerless system, but I'm back to analog summing. Basically I run my synths thrue an summing mixer to an analog to digital converter - it's nice cause it gives the synths an extra edge, plus additional volume gain, so when it's recorded in cubase the levels are nice and hot.I can push the volume up to 26 db before getting soft analog distortion. The analog summing mixer has class a circuits, and has valve like sound. But back to the mixing.... I also run 4 stereo channels from my audio card to the summing mixer, I create four group tracks. One for drums, second for bass, another one for synths, and another one for fx... Running it thrue the summing mixer it gives the mix an extra edge, plus I have additional stereo image control in the summing mixer, which gives a very nice stereo field. But The thing about doing this.. you need high quality mixer (or summing mixer) good cables, and good a/d d/a convertors. Otherwise you will probably loose audio quality..

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Originally posted by DJDIRTY you need a F*CKING EXPENSIVE mixer (or summing mixer) good cables, and good a/d d/a convertors. Otherwise you will probably loose audio quality..

:P
fixed

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Originally posted by echosystm :P fixed

HEHEHE you got that right accually

Might you need some Monster Cables?

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Originally posted by DJDIRTY Hi. I recently just started doing analog summing.. Back in the day I use to mix using an analog mixer, than moved to mixerless system, but I'm back to analog summing. Basically I run my synths thrue an summing mixer to an analog to digital converter - it's nice cause it gives the synths an extra edge, plus additional volume gain, so when it's recorded in cubase the levels are nice and hot.I can push the volume up to 26 db before getting soft analog distortion. The analog summing mixer has class a circuits, and has valve like sound. But back to the mixing.... I also run 4 stereo channels from my audio card to the summing mixer, I create four group tracks. One for drums, second for bass, another one for synths, and another one for fx... Running it thrue the summing mixer it gives the mix an extra edge, plus I have additional stereo image control in the summing mixer, which gives a very nice stereo field. But The thing about doing this.. you need high quality mixer (or summing mixer) good cables, and good a/d d/a convertors. Otherwise you will probably loose audio quality..

this is sweet man, that was kinda what I was thinking about doing but didnt know would be that expensive

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Why on earth would a hardware mixer make your tracks sound better, unless you are recording from certain types of external sources (ex. mics)?

to get more analogish sound and extra gain

I have a few questions about how exactly this stuff works. I am relatively clueless about digital to analog conversion.

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Basically I run my synths thrue an summing mixer to an analog to digital converter - it's nice cause it gives the synths an extra edge, plus additional volume gain, so when it's recorded in cubase the levels are nice and hot.I can push the volume up to 26 db before getting soft analog distortion.

How does running things through an analog mixer get you "hotter levels" in the end if it all ends up getting converted back to digital anyway? Isn't the volume of the end product limited by what Cubase (digital) can render? Also, why can't you just turn the volume up on the synths themselves or on their mixer channels in Cubase?

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The analog summing mixer has class a circuits...

What do these do?

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...and has valve like sound.

What is this, and how much of a difference does it make in the end product? Can you reliably tell the difference between a mix that has been run through an analog summing mixer and one that has not?

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Running it thrue the summing mixer it gives the mix an extra edge, plus I have additional stereo image control in the summing mixer, which gives a very nice stereo field.

I don't understand this part at all. How does analog summing give you a "better" stereo image?

Last edited by MrJiveBoJingles on Nov-20-2006 at 09:34

Hello Again.

Running thrue an analog summing mixer that has class a circuitry, is like having an build in preamp. You are able to make the signal louder. For example my jp8080 has a way quiet output comparing to my virus c. When I was recording straight into my soundcard in cubase, the signal was always much more quiet than recording the virus using the same soundcard. That could be fixed by normalizing and using some plugins, or using the gain increase in cubase, but the sound wasn't exactly the same after that..well let's just say the dynamics were a bit lost.

An annalog summing mixer can give you thase things. I'm gonna give you specs for one of them to give you an idea what it is.

16 Channel DAW Summing Solution
The Nicerizer 16 was originally conceived because of the demand from customers for something that would "sweeten" the output from pro-tools and other DAW, and to make the final mix easier to distribute and handle.

The Nicerizer 16 is designed to take the output out of the digital realm, and to add the Class A characteristics and feel before the final recording.

The “Nicerizer 16” uses our well proven and loved Class A output stage, but also has our latest breakthrough in transformerless Class A, Discrete Line Input Technology.

The Nicerizer 16 is a 2U 19" rack mountable 16 - 2 Summing Mixer, that can be stacked and linked in any multiple and various configurations to give high quality, line-level, Class A, discrete buffering, summing and mixing.

* 16 channels of our Class A, discrete, truly balanced transformerless input stage.
* Our proven and loved Class A, discrete, transformer balanced output stage (DSOP-2).
* Individual pan control for each channel (16 x Pan pots)
* 16 x Balanced Input XLR's. Can accept balanced or unbalanced input with no -6dB loss.
* 2 x mix busses (Stereo Mix Bus)
* 1/4" TRS Inserts on Busses (L + R Bus Insert points)
* +8dB Boost button on each channel.
* Master mix bus output level control.
* Stereo LED level monitoring.
* Switchable for each channel and Main Output
* Stereo/mono Headphone monitoring switchable to each channel and Main Output, includes headphone monitoring of the mix bus. (L, R, and Stereo)
* Main Outputs on Balanced XLR's
* Monitor Outputs on 1/4" TRS Jacks
* Class A Stereo Width control with Loss-less Bass. Pannable from mono through to +25% Wider + Width control Bypass switch.
* Maximum Output Level of +26dB.
* Huge headroom available on all channels.

About the better stereo image.. Well this particular model made by Pheonix Audio in Uk has a stereo field control..
(Class A Stereo Width control with Loss-less Bass. Pannable from mono through to +25% Wider + Width control Bypass switch.)

Class A
A type of amplifier design. When an amplifier's stage devices are passing current at all times, including when the amplifier is at idle (no music playing), whether the amplifier is single ended or push-pull, the amplifier is said to be biased in Class A. Because the current is flowing at all times, an input signal causes the current to be immediately diverted to the speakers, and therefore, the sound is very "fast". In the case of a push-pull amplifier, there is also less crossover distortion when the signal passes from the positive to the negative or negative to positive, since each side of the push-pull section is already "on". If all stages of the amplifier are biased in Class A, and the amplifier operates in Class A to full output (enough current flowing at idle that could be required for full output), it is said to be a "Pure Class A" amplifier. Pure Class A designs are understandably expensive to build and are usually only found in high-end audiophile equipment.

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What is this, and how much of a difference does it make in the end product? Can you reliably tell the difference between a mix that has been run through an analog summing mixer and one that has not?

Well to me it just sounds better thrue an analog box, than when I was mixing ITB. For example eaven running some of the vsti synths thrue the suming box, they sound a bit fuller.

The other week I had some gear home to test. Couple diefferent analog to digital convertors, and some dieferent cable brands. I currenty run an RME multiface, but after this weekend that's changing. I am keeping My RME soundcard for additional in's and out's, but I am adding two channels of high quality Analog to digital conversion and Digital to analog.. The diefferance in sound is phenomenal. Something that RME woudn't give me. I am also switching to Mogami Cables. They just seem to sound better on my system.. I finally found what's lacking in my system, and now i got the sound i was after I am gonna give you an idea of how i got things hooked up. Going to draw you a little diagram So you see how I got the summing mixer connected in my system. Right now my studio is in pieces, casue I am waiting for the cables, and the new convertor that shoud come this week..

Last edited by DJDIRTY on Nov-20-2006 at 22:58

So wait a minute. You convert from digital to analogue. Send an audio signal outboard to an analogue mixer. Mix it down. Then convert the analogue signal back to digital?

What the hell?

The only time where this will ever sound anything better than shit is if you have spectacular conversion. I'm talking Apogee Rosetta 200 and up. Ideally the Benchmark convertors or (gulp) those Prism Sound Dream convertors. Forget about sending digital signals outboard and back into your DAW again if you don't have convertors that are up to that grade.

'Class A' is a term in electronic amplification where power efficiency is not a concern. Most amplifiers that amplify small input signals will be Class A amplifiers. This includes shitty solid state guitar practice amps.

So basically this extra loudness and 'hotter' signal you are talking about - has nothing to do with the mixer. Rather it has to do with the fact that you are preamping the signal before it goes back into the soundcard input. So why not save yourself the extra 2 conversion stages and just increase the pregain on the relevant channel in the internal mixer on your DAW?

I have never heard of adding 2 extra conversion stages and the end result sounding good unless your convertors are crafted by god himself.

Rule of thumb for anyone that has any ideas: Dont bother with mixing outboard unless you have amazing convertors (i.e. Apogee AD16/DA16, Prism Sound 8XR) or an amazing soundcard with built in convertors. Which happen to be amazing (i.e. Apogee Rosetta 200/800).

Forget about outboard amplification unless you have spectacular preamplification (like, some UAD 610 preamp or one of those Avalon Tube monsters).

If you are producing on a budget and you are all digital, the best thing you can do with respect to the fidelity of the digital signal is to keep it digital at the highest bit depth and sample rate possible all the way until the end of your project where you then dither it down to a CD/DVD playback standard.

If you are just looking to hotten up your signal there are plenty of digital amp models available as plugins. The everpresent Amplitube is one of them. Voxengo Warmifier is another - both of them are pretty good and the digital signal stays digital.

If you are recording from loads of analogue outboard then its a whole different ballgame but you still want decent convertors.

Last edited by Derivative on Nov-20-2006 at 18:23

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The only time where this will ever sound anything better than shit is if you have spectacular conversion. I'm talking Apogee Rosetta 200 and up. Ideally the Benchmark convertors or (gulp) those Prism Sound Dream convertors. Forget about sending digital signals outboard and back into your DAW again if you don't have convertors that are up to that grade.

Well I am not gonna argue You are correct with the statement. But for me... I like the sound at the end, In fact I like the sound OTB over mixing ITB. And yes I have the Apogee converters that sound pretty amazing, along with the rest of the signal chain... I don't reccomand doing analog summing using m-audio and mackie mixer, cause you will certainly gonna get results that are less than satisfactory to some. But If the equipment is up to the task why not play around a bit and experiment with the sound.

Benchmark is nice but I tried that as well as lavry blue and went for the apogee, Out of the three I liked the sound of the rosetta the most.. But this is subjective to each individual. Some people like this some like that..
It all comes down what sound you want at the end, and whatever makes you happy..

I can say that nice sounding preamp would be the only thig that my studio needs.

Last edited by DJDIRTY on Nov-20-2006 at 18:47