US always loves to say to world that it cannot withdraw at the moment and how it will escalate problems.. all big load of shit, the truth is US wants to secure its oil bases and keep the oil pumping to its country. It dosent care about the Civil War as long as its cars are at cruise speed.

A complete withdrawl from Iraq is possible at any moment, here is what is needed to be done to solve Iraq problem:

1)Withdraw complely from Iraq, not one US soilder, not one US guard outside any oilfeild. Full withdrawl is needed, not partial withdrawl.

2)Bring in the UN forces, no Nato.. UN peace keeping forces if the world remember they still exist.

3)Pleadge and pay for all the rebuilding expenses, economic recovery will be swift as Iraq has oil.

4)Apologise and accept its mistakes, say in clear words you were wrong to invade Iraq and you lost the war.

Iraq problem can be solved anytime US wants it to, but the truth is they want to solve it on their own terms in their own way, inspite of loosing the battle completly. They dont care about US choppers being shot and soilder getting sniped everyday.. nor do they care about Civil War.

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This is fucking dumb, you are ignorant to the situation in Iraq and this post proves it. If all we want in Iraq is their oil then how come in 2005 Iraq only accounted for 5% of our oil imports. Thats a drop of spit in the ocean of US oil imports.

And what makes you think the Iraqis that are blowing us up want a UNPROFOR in their country any more than the US Army. We are there only as peacekeepers anyway, its not like we are acting as an occupying army. The people who are engaging in terrorism in Iraq fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Those who want no foreign forces in their country so they are attacking coalition troops

2. Those who want to eliminate a religious/ethnic group that is different from theirs (Shia vs Sunni violence)

Group 1 will attack the UN soldiers just like they attack coalition troops now.

UN Peacekeeping forces don't do dick.

Right now, the US presence is the only thing keeping Iraq from turning into an all-out battlefield. The majority of attacks we see now are Iraqi (with foreign help) against Iraqi. I shudder to think what the country would be like if left alone, or if a passive UN peace keeping force was sent in. Yes, they hate us being there, but at the moment, the alternative is far worse for them.

I wish every day that we were out of Iraq, but unless we want more Iraqis blowing each other up, eventually leading to the reinstatement of the kind of dictatorship Iraq loathed for so many years, the options are limited. No amount of apologizing on the part of the US will prevent that.

** Hijack Alert**

NeoPhono why are you, "Tranceaddict in Training"??

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Right now, the US presence is the only thing keeping Iraq from turning into an all-out battlefield. The majority of attacks we see now are Iraqi (with foreign help) against Iraqi. I shudder to think what the country would be like if left alone, or if a passive UN peace keeping force was sent in. Yes, they hate us being there, but at the moment, the alternative is far worse for them.

That's another lie that your president keeps selling to the US public to avoid being kicked out of the office.

quote:

Originally posted by star-traveler That's another lie that your president keeps selling to the US public to avoid being kicked out of the office.

Okay, tell me what would happen in Iraq without some sort of intervening force.

You really think the Kurds, Shi'a and Sunni would just lay down their weapons and shake hands? Do you think Iran or other outside governments would not try to influence the fledgling nation? Do you think the country would not fall back into a dictatorship or totalitarian theocracy? If you believe these things, please state your reasons and motives as to why these groups, who have lived in hatred of each other for centuries, would now, in a vacuum of power, magically decide to peacefully coexist. We have already seen their eagerness to kill each other in a pseudo-police state. If you take away the last real deterrent for their actions, why would they decide to stop?

You can say it's a lie all you want, but until you can prove otherwise, your statement is rhetoric.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r ** Hijack Alert** NeoPhono why are you, "Tranceaddict in Training"??

I think a while ago occrider or someone else had put their status as "supreme tranceaddict" or something like that. I thought it was funny and witty at the time, so I changed mine to that.

I'll fix it.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I think a while ago occrider or someone else had put their status as "supreme tranceaddict" or something like that. I thought it was funny and witty at the time, so I changed mine to that. I'll fix it.

You didn't have to fix on my account, I was just curious if you did put that there yourself or not

As for the subject matter, I agree with you NeoPhono.
What is going on now is nothing new, rather a 'changing of the guard' that will actually let you out of your cell (for lack of a better comparison).
Unfortunately their new-found freedom was apparently a cue to start up their old ways of killing each other rather than continuing their common celebration of liberation.
I should probably say that there was celebration of liberation but that somehow got old real fast before dogma set in and they were back at each others throats.
Sad really considering they're supposed to be the 'cradle of civilization' yet there isn't anything civil regarding their hatred of each other...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Thats is exactly the point I wanted to make. US and its media loves to potray how evil Iraq is, and how Iraqies are a killing machines who will kill anyone. But its not like that, Iraqies dont like US presence in Iraq because US has waged war on them before and this war is just a revenge for the war it lost before at Iraqies hand. Yes, Saddam won the last war in front of Iraqies and his popularity sore, remember how US killed all fleeing Iraqies in Kuwait before they could reach home, Iraqies know UN sanctions were because US wanted it, US drafted these santions and Iraqies see US directly responsible for all it miseries in PAST before the war because of sanctions and now after the war cause of little US has done to maintain law and order. Iraqies dont trust US. Noone trusts US.

Iraqies wont kill and attack UN forces, yes their might be a few small incidenes of 'terrorism' but it will be 5% of what it is today. Just like in Palestine their is some attack on Red Cross but its one isolated incidence.. not mass uprising against US forces we are seeing right now.

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Last edited by Purple on Feb-15-2007 at 17:49

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Thats is exactly the point I wanted to make. US and its media loves to potray how evil Iraq is, and how Iraqies are a killing machines who will kill anyone. But its not like that, Iraqies dont like US presence in Iraq because US has waged war on them before and this war is just a revenge for the war it lost before at Iraqies hand. Yes, Saddam won the last war in front of Iraqies and his popularity sore, remember how US killed all fleeing Iraqies in Kuwait before they could reach home, Iraqies know UN sanctions were because US wanted it, US drafted these santions and Iraqies see US directly responsible for all it miseries in PAST before the war because of sanctions and now after the war cause of little US has done to maintain law and order. Iraqies dont trust US. Noone trusts US. Iraqies wont kill and attack UN forces, yes their might be a few small incidenes of 'terrorism' but it will be 5% of what it is today. Just like in Palestine their is some attack on Red Cross but its one isolated incidence.. not mass uprising against US forces we are seeing right now.

There's not a whole lot in this post that's even close to accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Purple Thats is exactly the point I wanted to make. US and its media loves to potray how evil Iraq is, and how Iraqies are a killing machines who will kill anyone. But its not like that, Iraqies dont like US presence in Iraq because US has waged war on them before and this war is just a revenge for the war it lost before at Iraqies hand. Yes, Saddam won the last war in front for Iraqies and his popularity sore, UN sanctions were because US wanted it, US drafted these santions and Iraqies see US directly responsible for all it miseries in PAST before the war because of sanctions and now after the war cause of little US has done to maintain law and order. Iraqies dont trust US. Noone trusts US. Iraqies wont kill and attack UN forces, yes their might be a few small incidenes of 'terrorism' but it will be 5% of what it is today. Just like in Palestine their is some attack on Red Cross but its one isolated incidence.. not mass uprising against US forces we are seeing right now.

Did you read what I posted? If the US left, of course violence towards them would stop, at least in Iraq. I'm talking about the widespread violence of Iraqis vs. Iraqis. You have three large ethnic groups that all hate each other. If given the chance, and free reign, either one would be more than happy to slaughter the others. Right now the only thing stopping that (and just barely) is the US military. So again, if the US completely pulls out, what is going to stop the massacres?

Right now there are two choices:

1) Allow the US to stay, hopefully until enough Iraqi police are trained to maintain peace themselves. While that happens there will be violence against the US and the US against Iraqis. Hundreds to thousands will die.

2) The US completely pulls out. Ethnic and religious Iraqi forces, with help from neighboring governments, first destroy the existing Iraqi democratic government, then turn Iraqi into an "ethnic cleansing" battlefield. The US leaves, you have no Iraqi/US violence, but you have tens, if not hundreds of thousands massacred as each ethnic group fights for control.

In each case people are going to fault the US. If the US stays, the violence against the US and vice versa is blamed entirely on the US. If the US leaves, the massacres that would follow will also be blamed on the US. So, what does the US do? It either stays and has the death of thousands on its shoulders, or it leaves and has the death of tens to hundreds of thousands on its shoulders.

I want the US out of Iraq, but I also look at which option saves the most lives. We stay and people get killed. We leave and a shit load of people die. It's a choice between two evils, but the choice is obvious.