My Heart goes out to these people!


another example of how people are not wanting to live under Islamic Rule.......

Turkey is well screwed.

Ummm are you people aware that the army's opposition to Gul's nomination as presidant is wholly undemocratic via threat of military coup?

Are you people bigoted to the prospect of an Islamic president who's wife happens to wear a headscarf? Or are you willing to sacrifice democracy in order to limit Islam's role in government at any extent? The fact of the matter is that the AK party was democratically elected and Erdogan's nomination of Gul was legitimate. The army is answerable to the government and not vice versa, so I'm rather surprised that you all are rallying towards the side this breakdwon in democracy.

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^^ How can not wanting to live under or support people that do not want to live under Islamic Rule Bigoted??

Is it bigoted for me to hate the fact that El Busho met with all of the Christian Leaders to gather support for his War on Terror??

quote:

President George W. Bush met privately with Focus on the Family Founder and Chairman James Dobson and approximately a dozen Christian right leaders last week to rally support for his policies on Iraq, Iran and the so-called "war on terror." “I was invited to go to Washington DC to meet with President Bush in the White House along with 12 or 13 other leaders of the pro-family movement," Dobson disclosed on his radio program Monday. “And the topic of the discussion that day was Iraq, Iran and international terrorism. And we were together for 90 minutes and it was very enlightening and in some ways disturbing too." Details of the meeting were disclosed by Dobson during Monday's edition of his Focus on the Family radio program. Dobson described Bush as “upbeat and determined and convinced, adding, “I wish the American people could have sat in on that meeting we had.” Dobson went on to enumerate a series of meetings convened by Christian right leaders in Washington to discuss the supposedly existential threat to the United States from a nuclear Iran. “I heard about this danger [from Iran] not only at the White House but from other pro-family leaders that I met during that week in Washington," he said. “Many people in a position to know are talking about the possibility of losing a city to nuclear or biological or chemical attack. And if we can lose one we can lose ten. "If we can lose ten we can lose a hundred," he added, “especially if North Korea and Russia and China pile on.” Later in his broadcast, during a discussion about Iran with author and self-proclaimed “prophecy expert” Joel Rosenberg, Dobson drew a parallel between current Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad and Adolf Hitler. “The world looked at Hitler and just didn't believe him and tried to appease him the way we're hearing in Washington today,” Dobson remarked. “You know, the President seems to me does understand this, as I told you from that meeting I had with him the other day, but even there it feels like somebody ought to be standing up and saying, ‘We are being threatened and we are going to meet this with force -- whatever's necessary.’” Dobson continued, “Some of our listeners might not like that but I tell you, if we didn't stand up to Hitler, we'd be speaking German today.”

<<.SOURCE.>>

I don't care what religion a person or president is, but when that admin/gov starts to make policy to suit their Myth's belief system, or make life better for a certain group of people then yeah, Call me A bigot.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX ^^ How can not wanting to live under or support people that do not want to live under Islamic Rule Bigoted?? Is it bigoted for me to hate the fact that El Busho met with all of the Christian Leaders to gather support for his War on Terror?? <<.SOURCE.>> I don't care what religion a person or president is, but when that admin/gov starts to make policy to suit their Myth's belief system, or make life better for a certain group of people then yeah, Call me A bigot.

Why you are raising this red herring in response to the issue at hand is completely confusing to me. Please explain to me how Bush has any relevance in this matter of Turkish democracy? Or perhaps you are privy to information that I am not. Please illustrate to us ANY law that Gul or the AK party is promoting that directly challenges the secular tenents of the Turkish constitution.

What you seem to fail to understand is that the AK party was democratically elected and despite the protests of a large group of people they are hardly representative of the entire country. This is reinforced by the fact that Ataturk's secularist party has been out of power for more than a decade. More disturbing is that you willingly justify the behaviour of the Turkish military which is clearly flaunting the principle of democracy because it suits your preconceived notions of "secularism" and "religion" erroneously applied to the case of Turkey. So yes I'm calling you a bigot because you haven't demonstrated that you really understand the issues at hand as you substantiate your case. All I see is fearmongering to justify illegitimate behaviour. Something that is probably more symptomatic of the Bush administration than the original example you gave.

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider Why you are raising this red herring in response to the issue at hand is completely confusing to me. Please explain to me how Bush has any relevance in this matter of Turkish democracy? Or perhaps you are privy to information that I am not. Please illustrate to us ANY law that Gul or the AK party is promoting that directly challenges the secular tenents of the Turkish constitution. What you seem to fail to understand is that the AK party was democratically elected and despite the protests of a large group of people they are hardly representative of the entire country. This is reinforced by the fact that Ataturk's secularist party has been out of power for more than a decade. More disturbing is that you willingly justify the behaviour of the Turkish military which is clearly flaunting the principle of democracy because it suits your preconceived notions of "secularism" and "religion" erroneously applied to the case of Turkey. So yes I'm calling you a bigot because you haven't demonstrated that you really understand the issues at hand as you substantiate your case. All I see is fearmongering to justify illegitimate behaviour. Something that is probably more symptomatic of the Bush administration than the original example you gave.

Cool your jets sparkey... I am not stupid enough to get into a debate with you.....

but I will explain, myself and only myself since you called everyone bigots

quote:

Are you people bigoted to the prospect of an Islamic president ...

I don't think anyone spoke of anything remotely to consider anything bigoted in the posts before yours. Yeah, I can see maybe mine, since I detest any religion involvment in any form of governement, even my country's. Me adding the bush was just to show that its just not muslims on my part.
I will go off to read up on this AK party.....then I will be back

a little more info:

quote:

Arab Islamists view Turkey crisis as test for democracy Published: May 15 2007 03:00 | Last updated: May 15 2007 03:00 The Arab world has often looked at Turkey with disinterest, considering it a staunchly secular state that turned its back on Islam long ago and has little in common with many of its neighbours. However, analysts say the political crisis brewing in Ankara over the presidency - after the Turkish military threatened to intervene to thwart the presidential hopes of a candidate from a party with roots in the Islamist movement - has attracted unusual attention in the region. Moderate Islamist groups, in particular, are watching events in Turkey as a test of the merits of engagement in democratic politics. Issam el-Erian, a senior official from Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, says the showdown in Turkey could have far-reaching implications for the evolution of Islamist movements in the region. He says military intervention would strengthen the arguments of jihadi leaders who warn against participation in elections. "The radicals will be more convinced that this [democratic path] is in vain," says Mr el-Erian. For some Arabs, the Turkish military's opposition to a candidate from the ruling Justice and Development party (AKP), which grew out of an Islamist movement, has revived memories of the Algerian army's intervention in 1991 to stop an Islamist victory in legislative -elections. Mr el-Erian, however, argues that the experience of the AKP in Turkey's more mature democracy will be different from that of -Algeria's Islamic Salvation Front (Fis). The Fis was a newly established and radical party that lacked a coherent message when it was denied an -election victory, sparking years of civil strife. The army's move was also largely supported by western governments. In Turkey, the government is fighting the challenge from the military by seeking to elect a president through a direct popular vote, rather than parliamentary vote, making it more difficult for the army, which considers itself the guardian of secularism, to interfere. Arab Islamist groups have had an awkward relationship with the AKP, with many accusing it of abandoning its Islamist principles in pursuit of power within a secular state. Islamists point out that there are crucial differences between Turkey and Arab states, where autocratic regimes confront Islamist parties but seek legitimacy from Islam and base their constitution, in one way or another, on Islamic principles (without, however, necessarily applying it). Still, the region's more moderate Islamists in recent years have looked to the AKP as a successful model. For example, the programme of the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria, a banned group, includes a call for a "civil", pluralist and inclusive -government rather than a "religious" state. In Morocco, officials from the similarly named Justice and Development party (PJD), a legal group that is likely to do well in legislative elections this year, have been inspired by the Turkish experience. "The AKP lives under a secular umbrella - we say we're a democratic party but in an Islamic state," says Mustafa Ramid, an MP from the PJD. "But success in Turkey could lend moral support to Islamist parties that are playing the democratic game while failure will also have an impact." The Turkish test comes as Islamist groups in the region have faced a series of setbacks, despite recent success in elections. Taking advantage of US pressure on Arab regimes to democratise, Islamist groups stepped up their political participation in the aftermath of September 11 2001, some of them also moderating their message to distance themselves from jihadi groups. But enthusiasm in Washington waned when the administration realised that the better organised and more popular Islamists would do much better than weak and fragmented secular parties. So, over the past year, the Bush administration has appeared to revert to its old policy of backing authoritarian regimes. The election of Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist group, in January 2006 led to international isolation as western governments tied aid to a series of conditions, including Hamas' recognition of Israel. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood's strong performance in the 2005 legislative elections was met with a determined government crackdown to prevent the group from achieving further gains. Olivier Roy, a French expert on Islamist movements, says that if theTurkish crisis is not resolved through the ballot box,it will be further confirmation to Islamists of the "intolerance" of western democracy and the preference for "authoritarian secularism". Jamal Khashoggi, editor of Saudi Arabia's al-Watan newspaper, says the Turkish experience has broader implications. "If that experience fails, it will be a setback for modern Islamist movements and it will be a disaster for the western dream of encouraging a secular form of Islam," he says.

>>souce<<

Interesting ....

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Ummm are you people aware that the army's opposition to Gul's nomination as presidant is wholly undemocratic via threat of military coup? Are you people bigoted to the prospect of an Islamic president who's wife happens to wear a headscarf? Or are you willing to sacrifice democracy in order to limit Islam's role in government at any extent? The fact of the matter is that the AK party was democratically elected and Erdogan's nomination of Gul was legitimate. The army is answerable to the government and not vice versa, so I'm rather surprised that you all are rallying towards the side this breakdwon in democracy.

OCC.. although i agree with you... you still need to understand that their neighbors to the right were promised the same things from the mullahs right after the revolution.. but instead, raped and ravaged the culturally expressive persian nation. They are just being cautious of "islamic" leaders.. since Tehran now a-days tends to throw shit into spinning fans

Im half turkish.. and im happy to see that people there are not going to stand for a backwards fundementalist government, but in this case there seems to be no reason why they are so riled up.. other than the fact that the president elect has ties to groups who have been labled 'fundamentalist'

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Cyrus King OCC.. although i agree with you... you still need to understand that their neighbors to the right were promised the same things from the mullahs right after the revolution.. but instead, raped and ravaged the culturally expressive persian nation. They are just being cautious of "islamic" leaders.. since Tehran now a-days tends to throw shit into spinning fans Im half turkish.. and im happy to see that people there are not going to stand for a backwards fundementalist government, but in this case there seems to be no reason why they are so riled up.. other than the fact that the president elect has ties to groups who have been labled 'fundamentalist'

I understand where you're coming from, but I think that an Iranian Islamic undemocratic theocracy is not comprable to a Turkish Islamic democratic party. My point is that the AK party is not only a reasonable party in a democracy, but its completely inappropriate to disenfranchise democray for purely religious reasons. If there is no actual deprivation of rights than democracy demands respect for a reasonably demanded lifestyle.

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While I am probably the biggest secularist on the planet, I really see no reason for this uproar except for the Turkish military (which has interfered in the democratic process many times in the last 50 years) has gotten antsy and feels marginalized so they put up the threat of a coup to pump up their own cred.


MrS

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