*On Guilani and GOP stances on torture to prevent attacks*

"America knows, Wall Street knows it only takes one nuclear attack, one athrax attack, one serin gas attack to ruin our markets and economy. Now look, the appeasement brigade will always call it torture. You put them in handcuffs, they'll call it torture!"

"We have the enemy, you know what they do when they capture you, they cut your head off. And we're afraid to say we'll splash some water on their faces?"

"McCain has made it well-known that torture does not always work. You could get the WRONG information!"
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The first day of trading after September 11, the Dow Jones fell 10% in a day. That is billions of lost wealth gone. That is a taste of what could happen if the Islamists succeeded in a bigger attack which they have stated is their goal. If I had a guy who knew of an imminant attack, I'de use water-boards, stress positions, and psychological intimidation to save lives.

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So because Gordon Gecko wants us to keep him on easy street, we should go against the ideals that this nation was founded on?

Rationalizing torture because Wall Street doesn't want to have a bad day is reprehensible.


Mrs

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Click the sig to see MrSquirrel

-"Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.

Money money money. It sure can corrupt people's morals.

quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel So because Gordon Gecko wants us to keep him on easy street, we should go against the ideals that this nation was founded on? Rationalizing torture because Wall Street doesn't want to have a bad day is reprehensible. Mrs

Gecko's got a sequel coming out

Wall Street is our gauge of the economy. If it is affected too much, people lose their jobs, our money's value becomes volatile, prices fluctuate wildly, etc. Imagine if the computers went down. People's bank accounts would vanish overnight.

How should we extract information from an unwilling informant who you KNOW has information that can save lives?

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Screw "enhanced interrogation" techniques.

We need this guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Gecko's got a sequel coming out Wall Street is our gauge of the economy. If it is affected too much, people lose their jobs, our money's value becomes volatile, prices fluctuate wildly, etc. Imagine if the computers went down. People's bank accounts would vanish overnight. How should we extract information from an unwilling informant who you KNOW has information that can save lives?

Under any position it is still immoral and against the founding principles of your nation. You proud yourself on being for freedom and for democracy and yet you would allow behavior that is clearly against the main tenants of those doctrines to be violated so that a few billionaries don't lose a bit of money? I'm sorry you wont get any sympathy around here, I like to not bow to any god, money included.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Please suggest how we should defend ourselves then from this enemy who loves to chop heads off and post it online. Are you saying we should treat them like German prisoners of WWII?

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quote:

Originally posted by venomX Under any position it is still immoral and against the founding principles of your nation. You proud yourself on being for freedom and for democracy and yet you would allow behavior that is clearly against the main tenants of those doctrines to be violated so that a few billionaries don't lose a bit of money? I'm sorry you wont get any sympathy around here, I like to not bow to any god, money included.

...and to cement our place in history and the founding principles of our nation, we had to torture and kill and battle as many aggressors as we could make the King of England think twice about imposing his will on us ever again. it worked.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo ...and to cement our place in history and the founding principles of our nation, we had to torture and kill and battle as many aggressors as we could make the King of England think twice about imposing his will on us ever again. it worked.

If that is your view than stop feeding us the whole value based spread of democracy BS. Seriously. You can't try to promote a set of values while using another one to promote them because that means the set of values you are trying to promote don't work. We can cut the bullshit. I have no problem with waging war in whatever manner it has to be waged, just don't come crying with your tail between your legs when people do it back to you. What annoys me about people like you and krypton that advocate the use of things that have been outlawed in the past is that when someone does it to you, then you get all defensive. It's a convenient argument, I can do this to you but you can't do it to me. And just remember, If you are willing to have people do them back to you, people remember. Memories can burn strong for many years and then someone comes knocking at your door (as in what happened in 2001). Long term planning has never been the forte of humans, but you would think you people in the states would've learned your lesson.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Last edited by venomX on May-20-2007 at 23:35

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Please suggest how we should defend ourselves then from this enemy who loves to chop heads off and post it online. Are you saying we should treat them like German prisoners of WWII?

If you would like to keep the 'moral high ground' you have to suffer through these things and behave in a manner according to your values. True in some cases torture would be permissible, but you seem to advocate it for a too wide of an audience. If there was a nuclear device set to go off and millions would die, of course one should use torture. But then you have many problems. Problems of wrong information. Problems of vengeance, and as I replied to q, problems of people using it on your population. Once you set a precedent, more people will follow in finding torture acceptable.

Doctors say that it is usually cheaper to prevent disease by living a healthy lifestyle, and that it is more expensive to try and cure a disease after it has struck. Your country had it's chance to live a healthy lifestyle. Born in an era of more information, forged in the fire of war. And yet, nothing was learned. Greed still prevails and you used others to whatever your means disregarding future consequences. You are reaping what those that lived in that peace of land before you sowed. How to fix it? Surely it is a complex question and surely it takes time. But more aggression won't fix anything. The best defense in this game is an offense, but not violence. I don't have a clear cut answer for you because I haven't thought about this enough, but fighting fire with fire doesn't seem to be the right path. Surely some way to help them develop themselves more and at their pace is the right way out. The specifics, that I can't answer.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by venomX If that is your view than stop feeding us the whole value based spread of democracy BS. Seriously. You can't try to promote a set of values while using another one to promote them because that means the set of values you are trying to promote don't work. We can cut the bullshit. I have no problem with waging war in whatever manner it has to be waged, just don't come crying with your tail between your legs when people do it back to you. What annoys me about people like you and krypton that advocate the use of things that have been outlawed in the past is that when someone does it to you, then you get all defensive. It's a convenient argument, I can do this to you but you can't do it to me. And just remember, If you are willing to have people do them back to you, people remember. Memories can burn strong for many years and then someone comes knocking at your door (as in what happened in 2001). Long term planning has never been the forte of humans, but you would think you people in the states would've learned your lesson.

then don't trump up some convenient "morals of your founding fathers" crap to defend your way of life.

i mean what are we really talking about here? lets get rid of the sensational shit we see on TV shows and movies and we're left with what? waterboarding, loud music, solitary confinement?

let me ask you, what have you heard about what techniques are being used? lets go from there.