deep shit.
ive had a tune where i heard something that really wasnt there, and enjoyed it.
but i dont remember what tune it was.
so oh well.

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I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Also, I think this is why subtlety is key in this kind of music. I can't stand anything with big heavy kick drums and beats that just go 'UNN-TSS-UNN-TSS-UNN-TSS-UNN-TSS'. It needs layers. Base drums yes, but other stuff in between too.

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take this into consideration also, the old funk records were and still are phenomenal because everything was played live. The drums, the bass, the guitars, everything was pushing and pulling, the rhythm was changing and that was the beauty of it, the imperfection.

now, these carefully crafted tracks are nice i like some of them too but i find them too... too... too planned. and believe me, mistakes far more memorable than perfections.

when a dj fucks up, everyone remembers him and more people talk about him rather than a dj who is flawless.

Using a mistake musicaly and intentionally takes skill, i would mention james holden here who amongst others is one of the best in this.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec basslines which sound like they change when the rest of the track drops out but are in reality identical

sidechain compression?



i admire people who have mastered eq shelving to the point where they can make anything work together, sonically. example of this are andy page, telefon tel aviv, and sander van doorn.

i also wish i understood compression as much as prydz does.

the biggest amazement to me is almost the opposite of what you are talking about. the producer that have mastered "taking up space" in a mixdown...boards of canada are great at this. prydz is too. very very few elements, but each element is eqed and compressed to take up all available space to where 5 or 6 layers sound like 50.

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quote:

sidechain compression?

well that will do it for sure, but i'm more interested in the simple layering and serendipitous creation of a perceived complexity. but yes, sidechain compression makes this more apparent and complex, especially when the sounds are similar enough to where they start to move like one bassy monster

Nice topic. So, its apparent perception of music rather then actual one. In melodic trance when the bassline and the lead-line play side by side and then the bassline changes e.g. arpeggiates playing corresponding notes in different frequencies, i get the impression that the melodic lead-line on top changes as well (whereas in reality it doesn't). The same can happen with the pads as well. A classic example is Solid Globe's "Sahara" in which after two repetitions of the lead-line the bass-line and the pads play lower notes and the lead-line sounds somehow different without actually changing.



A lot of stuff in music are apparent though rather then actual. According to perceptual psychology there are Gestalt laws (more like heuristics) that organise both the visual and auditory environments. In music, the location of sounds as well the similarity of pitch and timbre are crucial. E.g. when there is a single sequence of high and low alternating notes, at high speeds it will be perceived as two streams playing high and low notes respectively rather then one. The effect is old and it was heavily used in the time of the Baroque composers e.g. by Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart etc. (and by the 20th century minimalists as well). Ofcourse this happens all the time and this is why we can perceive the bass and the melody in isolation rather then a blob of sounds and notes, and this is also why we can distinquish between simultaneous conversations in the first place (with allocation of attention being the second). So similarity, proximity and continuation of sounds in space and time are crucial for the perceptual organisation of music and sound in general.

With all this talking i remembered one of my old favorite deep and dubby minimal techno producers- Fluxion. Fluxion belongs to the 90s deep basic-channel school of techno and his works are comprised by polyrhythmic, very detailed hypnotic structures. I always got strange impressions by his tracks such as when the rhythm would somehow change but i wouldn't notice when that happened. It has all these small detailed changes going-on and you get the impression that the music somehow contains subliminal messages or something. Another thing with his tracks (and generally most of the tracks of the Basic Channel label)is that if you focus your attention to each of the rhythms and/or sounds you perceive the track differently. This is what i get anyway (and i'm not into drugs). Anyway i found some samples in juno but these tracks need to be listened from start to finish.



Fluxion- "Lark"

http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF34502-01-01-01.mp3



Fluxion- "Pendulous"


http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF40673-01-04-01.mp3


Fluxion- "Opaque"


http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF40673-01-04-02.mp3


Fluxion- "Hiatus"

http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF40673-01-03-01.mp3

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN when there is a single sequence of high and low alternating notes, at high speeds it will be perceived as two streams playing high and low notes respectively rather then one. The effect is old and it was heavily used in the time of the Baroque composers e.g. by Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart etc.

great example of this is Organ Fugue (i think by Bach, i feel really bad i dont know that)

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quote:

Originally posted by hadi ****** +1. haha, sometimes when i am trying to mix down a track or master it, i listen to an eric prydz song to try and compare (of course i cant) but i am amazed at how he gets that sound and how clean it all sounds, fuckin hard to do i also love picking apart layers while listening to songs.

i quit trying to figure out what trickery he uses when someone told me all he uses is logic plugins...hes just on some different plane of understanding when it comes to sound.

another thing hes good at is introducing the right element at the right time, much like a really good dj plays the right record at the right time. prydz keeps you interested in the track just long enough not to get bored and then introduces something very simple that totally blows you away for some reason.

hes mastered the art of "tension" when it comes to the dance floor.

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@petran - i'm at work right now but your response looks very interesting and i want to put some thought into it so i will listen later



totally agreed about the right element at the right time. it's all about timing.

even when you watch good top 40 deejays the key thing you notice is not a technical skill or a particularly good taste in music, but damn, they know how to time records!

on a production level, I really like music that seems to be the same but in reality has changed without you knowing and when you finally realize it you realize it has also changed. it's like a dream where nothing is really clearly defined - you wake up, you can't say exactly where you have been or what you did, you have a good idea of specific random things, but as for any connection, you have no idea what happened or howyou possibly mediated between the two states...

i like music that holds off and holds off until you just can't stand it anymore and then changes slightly and thus the change becomes nearly of infinite importance. it can be one semitone, it can be an adjustment of 1 decibel to a bassline, it can be the absence of a tonic, or the absence of a beat that the listener once relied on, it can be the addition of a a tiny reverberent panning clave or a light hat pitter patter

Marco Carola - Apnea

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec on a production level, I really like music that seems to be the same but in reality has changed without you knowing and when you finally realize it you realize it has also changed. it's like a dream where nothing is really clearly defined - you wake up, you can't say exactly where you have been or what you did, you have a good idea of specific random things, but as for any connection, you have no idea what happened or howyou possibly mediated between the two states...

That's one of the basic characteristics of a lot of ambient, the long-form droning/textural/soundscape type in particular. Slow subtle changes over long periods of time, no harsh sounds, no sharp contrasts, nothing dramatic. Usually when i've listened to an album, made up of one or a few long tracks, i don't realize it's finished until a few minutes after the end. After a few minutes of silence i realize "oh, there's no more music". It's so smooth it merges seamlessly in and out of silence.