quote:

Poles demand more EU votes to compensate for WWII deaths Desperate attempts to forge a deal on the future of Europe were overshadowed last night by an astonishing demand for the voting system to reflect Polish population losses caused by the Nazi invasion in 1939. Polish leaders said the proposed EU voting formula, based on population, disadvantaged their country because it had still to recover from the millions lost during the Second World War. The latest intervention from Poland, regarded with Britain as the main obstacle to a deal tonight in Brussels, was regarded as a move to add to pressure on Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, who is anxious to crown her country’s presidency of the EU with an agreement she can sell at home. She was also under pressure, although less hostile, from Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, telling her in a joint telephone call that there could be no retreat from their demands that Britain receive a water-tight legal exemption from the Charter on Fundamental Rights, and a retention of the veto on law and order and social security. Mr Blair told The Times that he would “walk away” unless his requests were met, and his last Cabinet meeting firmly backed that stance. Mrs Merkel will hold separate meetings this morning with the “awkward squad” leaders of Britain, Poland and the Netherlands, which is seeking a boost in the powers of national parliaments against Brussels. Mr Blair arrived predicting a “tough negotiation”. There would have to be “really significant change” in Britain’s “red line” areas of foreign policy, the judicial system, tax and social security, and the charter. After last night’s dinner at which heads of government set out their stances, British officials said that not only Britain but France, the Netherlands and Poland had serious issues to resolve. “There is not much sign of movement at this stage,“ the Prime Minister’s spokesman said. “Our red lines are not a menu of options. We need to see each of them met. Tomorrow we will find out whether it is possible.” The Polish dart was fired by Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the Prime Minister. His more emollient twin brother, Lech, the President, is representing his country at the summit. But just as Mr Brown was in constant touch with the man he is about to replace, the Polish Prime Minister was equally keen to ensure that his President gave nothing away that could embarrass him later on. The Polish Prime Minister said the voting system hurt his country because of its war losses: “If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would today be looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million.” Its population is 38 million. Under the proposed “double majority” system, a vote requires 55 per cent of member states and 65 per cent of EU population to succeed. Germany, with a population of 82 million, benefits most from that system, while Poland loses out. It wants to revert to the system agreed at Nice in 2000, under which it achieved almost equal voting strength with Germany. Poland lost 22 per cent of its population during the war, 500,000 fighting men and six million civilians. Mr Kaczynski’s outburst seems certain to damage relations with his biggest EU neighbour. He told Polish radio: “It was the Germans who inflicted unimaginable injury, terrible harm on Poland – incomprehensible crimes – and Poles like Germans, while Germans do not like Poles.” His attack offended German politicians who hit back last night. Hans-Gert Pöttering, an ally of Mrs Merkel and President of the European Parliament, said that such comments “should no longer be made in the 21st century”. The head of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, predicted before the summit that the Mr Blair would leave the talks having ceded some ground. “One thing we have to accept is that in Europe you’ve got to be reasonable and rational,”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle1969332.ece

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"The favorite American pastime is not baseball, it's moral crusades."

Stupid...

Tell them to be happy with what they were left after the war.

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Even more interesting than the article are some of the reader comments on that page (I provided the link):

quote:

Sounds a good enough argument. Mind you the Poles would then have to give one of their extra votes to each of the UK and Ireland because that is where a good proportion of the Poles now live. ... As an British ex-pat living in Poland for the past 12 years I am embarrased by the Kacynski brothers behaviour and lack of diplomacy - their comments DO NOT represent the population they represent. Thier attitudes come from thier mother, a war camp survivor, and thier obsession with the past. Please note niether brother had EVER left Poland before becoming Primie Minister and President - they have no understanding of the world out side thier own little bizarre empire. ... Let's follow Poland's example: why not calculate what every country's population would have been had it not been for the war (and why stop at just one war?) and then we can really confuse matters. Where shall we stop? Waterloo? Culloden? the Crusades?! ... One begins to wonder if Poland really should have been permitted to join the EU if this is the kind of retrogressive, reactionary rhetoric that they come up with. Perhaps the EU would be better off without them seeing as they seem intent on trampling on minority rights, such as those of homosexuals, and evidently do not understand the need to respect divergences of opinion. This assertion by Poland is absurd nationalist rhetoric, inherently racist, and has no place in the modern world. ... Reminds me of the boy who killed both his parents and then asked the judge for mercy because he's an orphan... Dear Poles... hundreds of thousands of your war dead are the Jews you so happily looted and turned in to the Nazis (including my family). The punishment of Poland is the loss of its Jews. ... Most everyone, with the exception of leading politicians of course, understood that the mad rush to expand EU would be - indeed - nothing but madness, and the inclusion of Poland would lead into nothing else but problems. The Polish themslves have proven it. Quod est demonstrandum. Not a tear would shed if they would leave EU.

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"The favorite American pastime is not baseball, it's moral crusades."

Not that I agree with Poland's demands, but please at least try and see it in the proper context, and not in the agenda set by some right-wing Eurosceptic British newspaper.

Currently, the voting system in the Council is similar to that in the US Senate - one state, one vote (or one state, two votes as in the Senate) - each state has an equal voice (and veto in certain policy areas). Poland wants to maintain that (or has suggested the "square root" voting system)

Altho I think it's important for each state to feel they have a say in the EU, the whole reason we're having this Constitutional debate is because as more countries join, the more gridlocked the decision making process becomes. In order for us to implement policy to improve the EU, we can't be held hostage by one tiny country who may disagree for whatever reasons. A proportional voting system would allow for a more stream-lined Union, and opt-outs in certain policy areas should help allay the fears of member states who have strong views on certain issues

Poland's almost insane like Ukraine. Ukrainians are also trying to play the same card, against Russia, claiming that 1920s famine was a genocide by the Soviet Union against its people.

Poland's leader is a dumbass. Why? He should then give Germany back the lands that Soviet Union and Poland seized from Germany (east of Oder German lands, and 1/3 of former East Prussia that were given to Poland). That would cut down Poland's territory almost by 1/3 (same as alleged population decrease). Other countries suffered too, you know, but you dont hear them bringing up almost 80 year-old claims all in order to sabotage and stop the EU progress. Which I dont mind. Current German leadership had nothing to do with atrocities committed by Nazi criminals back then. Poland didnt suffer near as much as other countries did like Soviet Union, some parts of which were brutally decimated by the war (Belarus lost 1/4 of its population, for example). Poland has also been playing a dirty political game against Russia. Poland should just be kicked out of EU and also ignored and blockaded by Russia/EU for being just an idiot. Cant Polish people see all this? Also, there's some interesting developments within Poland recently - they're trying to jail and humiliate former communist officials that ruled Poland in 1980s, using today's laws and system (which is absurd, if you tell me). Its a big show trial. How can you prosecute government officials that had to follow Poland's laws and constitution of 1980s with today's system? Thats proposterous. Poland's losing it.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Poland's almost insane like Ukraine. Ukrainians are also trying to play the same card, against Russia, claiming that 1920s famine was a genocide by the Soviet Union against its people. Poland's leader is a dumbass. Why? He should then give Germany back the lands that Soviet Union and Poland seized from Germany (east of Oder German lands, and 1/3 of former East Prussia that were given to Poland). That would cut down Poland's territory almost by 1/3 (same as alleged population decrease). Other countries suffered too, you know, but you dont hear them bringing up almost 80 year-old claims all in order to sabotage and stop the EU progress. Which I dont mind. Current German leadership had nothing to do with atrocities committed by Nazi criminals back then. Poland didnt suffer near as much as other countries did like Soviet Union, some parts of which were brutally decimated by the war (Belarus lost 1/4 of its population, for example). Poland has also been playing a dirty political game against Russia. Poland should just be kicked out of EU and also ignored and blockaded by Russia/EU for being just an idiot. Cant Polish people see all this? Also, there's some interesting developments within Poland recently - they're trying to jail and humiliate former communist officials that ruled Poland in 1980s, using today's laws and system (which is absurd, if you tell me). Its a big show trial. How can you prosecute government officials that had to follow Poland's laws and constitution of 1980s with today's system? Thats proposterous. Poland's losing it.

Again, don't let some flippant remark from Poland's Prime Minister (not President, and therefore not at the European summit) deflect from the ACTUAL issue over Poland not wanting to lose power in Europe.

The Constitution has been an issue for over a year yet you all wait until the summit is actually taking place to discuss the Polish position on the vote - which has also been an issue since the Constitution debate started - because of some sensationalist news story about some remark by the Polish PM which tries to make out that that is the reason Poland is taking this stance - would it kill any of you to do a bit of research?!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Again, don't let some flippant remark from Poland's Prime Minister (not President, and therefore not at the European summit) deflect from the ACTUAL issue over Poland not wanting to lose power in Europe. The Constitution has been an issue for over a year yet you all wait until the summit is actually taking place to discuss the Polish position on the vote - which has also been an issue since the Constitution debate started - because of some sensationalist news story about some remark by the Polish PM which tries to make out that that is the reason Poland is taking this stance - would it kill any of you to do a bit of research?!

Poland only recently joined the EU, they should be happy about it, instead of trying to seize power in it, which they have little right to because they are much weaker politically, economically and socially. So why should they have the bigger piece of the pie. Its common sense. Poland's prime minister is using communist tacticts to destroy relations with his European neighbours, block EU progress and try to seize more power by arrogantly trying to win public support. Oh, and time I checked, its Germany that presiding over EU presidency right now.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Poland only recently joined the EU, they should be happy about it, instead of trying to seize power in it, which they have little right to because they are much weaker politically, economically and socially. So why should they have the bigger piece of the pie. Its common sense. Poland's prime minister is using communist tacticts to destroy relations with his European neighbours, block EU progress and try to seize more power by arrogantly trying to win public support. Oh, and time I checked, its Germany that presiding over EU presidency right now.

Why doesn't California have a proportional number of Senators?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Why doesn't California have a proportional number of Senators?

Yeah, why dont they? Its in the constitution. I think that EU's policies are very fair, and since joining EU is for the better to Poland, they should be happy and live with it. Why wouldn't Poland concentrate on rebuilding itself to the levels of Germany / France / Netherlands first before creating a political havoc within EU? I mean, they even have the balls to claim they're kingsh-t without having the progress card to show for it? They should take examples from Germany/ France / Belgium / etc. that trying to seize power like this is first of all not going to happen, and secondly, it will only make Poland's political and economical standing more questionable.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Yeah, why dont they? Its in the constitution. I think that EU's policies are very fair, and since joining EU is for the better to Poland, they should be happy and live with it. Why wouldn't Poland concentrate on rebuilding itself to the levels of Germany / France / Netherlands first before creating a political havoc within EU? I mean, they even have the balls to claim they're kingsh-t without having the progress card to show for it? They should take examples from Germany/ France / Belgium / etc. that trying to seize power like this is first of all not going to happen, and secondly, it will only make Poland's political and economical standing more questionable.

But it was in the Treaty that the Council would be one state, one vote when Poland signed it...

You need to do a bit of research about the EU cos you keep saying Poland is trying to seize power when the actual fact is they are trying to not have it taken away from them...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley But it was in the Treaty that the Council would be one state, one vote when Poland signed it... You need to do a bit of research about the EU cos you keep saying Poland is trying to seize power when the actual fact is they are trying to not have it taken away from them...

Well, then, if Poland is so not happy in the EU and keeps making havoc, well, they should just leave then? But that won't happen. They'll just remain as whiners and will be long dismissed and ignored by the EU. They are and will the the thorn between EU and Russia, cause they're getting on the nerves of both. It was only few months ago when Poland threatened EU and Germany in particular with whatever political action they could muster when they were bitterly opposing and still are to the baltic sea gas pipeline that will go from Russia to Germany (bypassing Poland) by the way of the bottom of Baltic passing by all the transit states that push Russia around, levy lot of money on the pipelines and hold Russia and EU hostage as seen in the Ukraine / Belarus / Russia pipeline shut-off problems.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture