this is awesome that this may happen in our lifetime (sooner the fucking better, please) it has already been trialed in a few places, even britain and america have at least acknowledged it.

countries will give everyone a universal basic income. an adequate salary to live on... for free. no signing on. no hoops to jump through. FREE FUCKING MONEY! a slackers dream.

robots are taking over.

i seen somewhere the tagline 'what would you do with your life if your income was taken care of'.

you are still allowed to have a job and rake in even more dough, but i think some of the thinking behind this, is there are many artists out there that can't pursue their dreams cause they are locked down in a shitty job. the world could be enriched.

with automation, the robots can wipe humans out of the picture at a much more economical cost, and at exponential efficiency. the county's GDP stays the same (or even rises) even without people working and producing.

what a great prospect.

this could be the matrix 1.0 paradise realised.

Last edited by rubez on Oct-13-2016 at 11:11

What you describe is essentially Marx's communist utopia. If sustainable it's a fantastic idea (at least how Marx wrote it).

I'm a big fan of UBI in concept. Unfortunately, concept and reality don't always turn out the same... just look at every past attempt to build a communist utopia. For the time being I'm cautiously optimistic and looking forward to seeing how the pilot projects they are going to run in Lausanne, Finland, and Ontario go.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Well, it has a thoroughly conservative pedigree, as well. No less than Milton Friedman supported it!

I'm actually a huge supporter of such an idea - wait for it - at least in theory.

We'll see, though.

Anyways: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-income/375600/

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communist?

i guess UBI would still get taxed to keep services and infrastructure going. humans would still spend their money on junk to keep the economy going.

if robots can produce the country's wealth, i think humans can sit back and relax. don't see that as communist.

even better, if you do choose to work, the only jobs left will be the interesting ones. the class system would still very much be in place.

with the stability, the amount of entrepreneurs would explode.

quote:

Originally posted by rubez i guess UBI would still get taxed to keep services and infrastructure going.

You don't really get UBI, do you?

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hey, it's free money.

i'm not questioning it too much, or pretending to be an intellectual, but this concept very much has my interest and full backing!

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Originally posted by rubez communist?

yes, communist... you know "from all according to their ability and to all according to their need" and all that.

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i guess UBI would still get taxed to keep services and infrastructure going. humans would still spend their money on junk to keep the economy going.

I've not seen a UBI plan that contemplates taxing the basic income. It makes no sense at all... why would you tax a government grant rather then just reducing the size of the grant? Taxing it would just be a wasteful bureaucratic exercise.

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if robots can produce the country's wealth, i think humans can sit back and relax. don't see that as communist.

Clearly, you have never read Marx and Engels. The theory behind communism sets automation as a necessary precursor to communism (MandE don't actually use the word automation as it didn't exist then but that's what they are talking about). Further, Marx argued that once a certain level of industrialization (automation) was reached communism would be a natural consequence of it.

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even better, if you do choose to work, the only jobs left will be the interesting ones.

Seriously, read the Communist Manifesto... it's only like 100 pages; this is all in there. You're "even better" is essentially what Marx describes as the end state; where people do things based on what they enjoy, not based on economic value.

So, yeah, it's all very communist. That's a good thing.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

i have been propagandized to associate communism with mother russia, the hammer and sickle, and greyness.

i think this term could be a political stumbling block as opponents trot it out, but once the people realise they are getting free money i think we all wont have a problem becoming (literally) fully paid up communists

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I've not seen a UBI plan that contemplates taxing the basic income. It makes no sense at all... why would you tax a government grant rather then just reducing the size of the grant? Taxing it would just be a wasteful bureaucratic exercise.

yeah, so built-in tax. you know what i mean. the govt would take the tax, we get the rest.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Clearly, you have never read Marx and Engels.

lol

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard So, yeah, it's all very communist. That's a good thing.

I disagree that it has to end up Communist. It could equally (and, in my personal view, ideally) end up in a situation sort of like in the beginning of The Diamond Age, where all basic needs are met by the state, and then hard work / luck / etc take care of desires. Nobody starves to death, but there are still social classes and hard work still pays off.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lews I disagree that it has to end up Communist. It could equally (and, in my personal view, ideally) end up in a situation sort of like in the beginning of The Diamond Age, where all basic needs are met by the state, and then hard work / luck / etc take care of desires. Nobody starves to death, but there are still social classes and hard work still pays off.

I'm not a fan of all the past failed attempts at communism; however, I honestly think that Marx got it mostly right. Communism is inevitable, it will happen. I don't think UBI will result in a full blown communist utopia on it's own; however, as automation increases and the demand for labour decreases it will reach a point (eventually... long after we are dead) where there is little economic value in labour and the cost of production for most things will be sufficiently low that the exchange of capital becomes unnecessary. I don't believe we will ever have the state wither away quite like Marx predicts since someone will still need to administer the allocation of any resources that are scarce but in most other ways I think something significantly close to the communist utopia will develop in the coming centuries. In the more immediate future you're probably right, the state will provide the necessities for all and those that have talents that are in greater demand will be able to receive payment for their efforts but that too will fade as the value of most goods, property and services diminishes.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

um, no.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lews lol I disagree that it has to end up Communist. It could equally (and, in my personal view, ideally) end up in a situation sort of like in the beginning of The Diamond Age, where all basic needs are met by the state, and then hard work / luck / etc take care of desires. Nobody starves to death, but there are still social classes and hard work still pays off.

there is an H.G Wells book waiting for you somewhere.

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