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the-sixth
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2007
Location: London
Monitor Cables

If i have a pair of tapco S8 and an echo audiofire 2 what cables would anyone recommend?

What should i be loking for in a cable? I notice they have things like oxegen free and other stuff in their description.


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Old Post Dec-25-2007 16:23  United Kingdom
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Zild
Ten City



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156

You probably want to use 1/4" cables since that is what the audiofire 2 has. I wouldn't worry about brand they're just cables.


___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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Old Post Dec-25-2007 18:47  United States
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DJ RANN
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: May 2001
Location: Hollywood....

quote:
Originally posted by Zild
You probably want to use 1/4" cables since that is what the audiofire 2 has. I wouldn't worry about brand they're just cables.


Sorry, but very bad advice. A lot of people don't appreciate the importance of good cables and there is a lot of bullshit out there about which ones to go for. Don't forget, they are the single link between your various expensive peices of kit so don't put damp noodles between them and expect it to sound great.

I will write a lot more tomorrow on this but check out Van Damme cable
http://www.vdctrading.com/

Not too expensive but it's what used at abbey road, real world, etc and they will make an

Old Post Dec-25-2007 18:55 
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Derivative
Bipolar Bear



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Dublin

The oxygen content of copper is meaningless for transmitting low bandwidth (audio frequency) signals down a few feet of copper. Skin effect is similarly meaningless. Cable impedance is meaningless unless you are transmitting high bandwidth signals (ghz range) over short distances (a few feet) or low bandwidth signals (audible khz range) over great distances (thousands of feet). This includes the effects of inductance, cable resistance and capacitive resistance.

Gauge is meaningless in terms of electrical considerations (again over short distances and low bandwidth signals). You will want thicker cables if they will be flexed alot but these are mechanical considerations. Stranded conductors rather than solid conductors will be more flexable as will annealing conductors.

The short of it is: You can use a coat hanger to connect your speakers to your soundcard and it would be every bit as good as a professionally designed and made cable as long as the potential at either end of the coathanger is the same (it is properly grounded) and it is insulated so that it does not come into contact with other signal carrying conductors.

Here are some facts that will help you to make informed decisions and not waste money you don't have to. You can even make your own cables with this information. Its not hard.

http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Techpprs/wcfsbetp.htm
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/3979/0/

Old Post Dec-25-2007 19:33  Ireland
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Zild
Ten City



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156

quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Sorry, but very bad advice. A lot of people don't appreciate the importance of good cables and there is a lot of bullshit out there about which ones to go for. Don't forget, they are the single link between your various expensive peices of kit so don't put damp noodles between them and expect it to sound great.

I will write a lot more tomorrow on this but check out Van Damme cable
http://www.vdctrading.com/

Not too expensive but it's what used at abbey road, real world, etc and they will make an


Before you call someone out you should check yourself.

I do recommend using balanced cables if possible, but that has to do with noise not sound quality.


___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

Latest Mix

Old Post Dec-25-2007 19:44  United States
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the-sixth
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2007
Location: London

Reading that was very informative

i was under the impression cables were very important, but it seems that for such a short distance and also the fact these are active monitors, that the cable does not matter at all.


___________________
1999 Mix series

Rare Vinyls spinning on video If you like that sort of thing

Old Post Dec-25-2007 23:35  United Kingdom
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echosystm
super wow maker



Registered: Jul 2004
Location:

just get hosa or some other "ok" quality brand.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
I've never had a problem with FLs tech support till this day. (I've actually never used it till this day)

quote:
Originally posted by floyd741
i think echosystm is a pretty cool guy. eh pwns robby rox and doesn't afraid of anything.

Old Post Dec-25-2007 23:58  Australia
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DJ RANN
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: May 2001
Location: Hollywood....

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative
The oxygen content of copper is meaningless for transmitting low bandwidth (audio frequency) signals down a few feet of copper. Skin effect is similarly meaningless. Cable impedance is meaningless unless you are transmitting high bandwidth signals (ghz range) over short distances (a few feet) or low bandwidth signals (audible khz range) over great distances (thousands of feet). This includes the effects of inductance, cable resistance and capacitive resistance.

Gauge is meaningless in terms of electrical considerations (again over short distances and low bandwidth signals). You will want thicker cables if they will be flexed alot but these are mechanical considerations. Stranded conductors rather than solid conductors will be more flexable as will annealing conductors.

The short of it is: You can use a coat hanger to connect your speakers to your soundcard and it would be every bit as good as a professionally designed and made cable as long as the potential at either end of the coathanger is the same (it is properly grounded) and it is insulated so that it does not come into contact with other signal carrying conductors.

Here are some facts that will help you to make informed decisions and not waste money you don't have to. You can even make your own cables with this information. Its not hard.

http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Techpprs/wcfsbetp.htm
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/3979/0/


While most of this is correct, it really only applies to single runs of unterminated speaker cables (i.e single or dual core insulated interconnects) where there are no other environmental factors (power cables running along side audio cables for instance)and does not provide for terminated balanced cables which is what is needed by the-sixth.

Many other factors aside from just the basic scientific principles are present in a studio situation, which should have a great affect on cable choice. I'm not saying your theory is wrong, just that they would all be true and correct as described if used in a magnetically shielded vacuum. It is very true that single or dual core unbalanced speaker cable should not be too worried about for short distances and really you can use standard 14 - 24 awg electrical cable (from a DIY store) for this purpose.

Even then, IMHO having worked for Belden + Van Damme cable and done AB comparison testing, there is a noticeable difference in perceived sound quality (oxygen free copper, linear crystal alligment, proper insulation etc, etc.).

Unbalanced cable will attenuate badly and be very open to interference when carrying line level signals at anything other than short distances. Ever wonder why you can't really buy phono cables longer than 10m-15?

The reason I say get decent cables is that those other factors come in to play in a studio environment; often power cables will run alongside audio cables, you will be plugging the cables in and out more than once and the quality of the connectors, solder, boots, jacket all add to the durability and ulitmately sound quality of your cables, the material of connectors (gold does not "give better sound quality" - it only protects from corrosion but again this will over time affect the sound qaultiy (and I say this becuase I myself have witnessed countless times degredation in sound quality from tarnished contact surfaces). Remember, with your audio path īt will only be as clean as the weakest link in the chain. Expand that to a micro level, even things like the quality of the solder come in to play, becuase even if you if you do have fancy cable and connectors, the solder will also have to conduct the signal. Also, as these cables are line level balanced, with two conductors and a shield, the actual copper cores are going to be thin (maybe a mm or 2 each at most) - not like "high" level (in audio terms) speaker cable which has completely different considerations.

Basically, get decent cables - you don't have to spend more than £15, they will last a long time and sound better.at the same time don't adhere all the audiophile stuff about pure silver cables etc., as a lot of it is a grey area and it also relies heavily on all things being equal (conditioned power, completely (to over anal levels )clean signal path etc, to achieve minimal and in sound cases negligable differnce in quality.

By the way, brands I would suggect to stay away from are:
Hosa
Proel
Brennel
Phillips (blister style pack available in tesco etc)
Pro gold
Monster
.....These are mostly mass produced in china with the worst materials - open some of the connectors up and see how badly they are made.

Brands to go for:

Belden (great quality, cheap but difficult to find in the UK, especiually as made up cables or short runs).
Draka (decent quality but same as above)
Canare (Very good quality but same as above)
Mogami (great quality, cheap but difficult to find in the UK, especiually as made up cables or short runs).
Van Damme (great quality, not cheap but not expensive, and will make any configuration you could ever want - UK based.)


EDIT: by the way Derivative, are you a telecoms engineer by any chance

Old Post Dec-26-2007 21:03 
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the-sixth
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2007
Location: London

wow what a excellent post

thanks

I will look out for the van dammes. I had a look online and i cannot see anything i can plug into them speakers, only seen two mono ones.


___________________
1999 Mix series

Rare Vinyls spinning on video If you like that sort of thing

Old Post Dec-26-2007 21:31  United Kingdom
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echosystm
super wow maker



Registered: Jul 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
etc.


i admit to knowing sweet f all about speaker cables. when i went to buy mine, i was going to get the more expensive ones but the SALES guy talked me out of it and just gave me hosa i think. he said it was unnecessary for such a short length. i have 50cm normal balanced trs cables (half a meter). does it matter over such a short run?


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
I've never had a problem with FLs tech support till this day. (I've actually never used it till this day)

quote:
Originally posted by floyd741
i think echosystm is a pretty cool guy. eh pwns robby rox and doesn't afraid of anything.

Old Post Dec-27-2007 00:23  Australia
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Derivative
Bipolar Bear



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Dublin

quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Unbalanced cable will attenuate badly and be very open to interference when carrying line level signals at anything other than short distances. Ever wonder why you can't really buy phono cables longer than 10m-15?

...

EDIT: by the way Derivative, are you a telecoms engineer by any chance


No I'm not an engineer period. 15 quid or less I could agree on because on the scale of things that isn't a huge amount to pay and if you get a rugged cable with a good warranty then its a good deal.

I disagree about the oxygen content of copper making a difference and the type of insulation (dialectric) because the science is on my side.

The oxygen content of copper is an insignificant variable and only becomes an issue (mechanically) when it is heated until it is molten and the hydrogen in the air binds to oxygen forming steam (which can result in bubbles which make the copper more brittle). Electrically, it makes almost no difference when you use any commercial grade copper wire.

You can even shoot Belden an email and ask them about the oxygen content of their copper wiring and you will find it is a standard 99.95% copper. They don't sell 100% oxygen free copper and their cables are used in industries were cable design actually matters (like long distance telecomunications and transmitting digital TV signals and stuff).

Old Post Dec-27-2007 00:31  Ireland
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DJ RANN
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: May 2001
Location: Hollywood....

quote:
Originally posted by echosystm
i admit to knowing sweet f all about speaker cables. when i went to buy mine, i was going to get the more expensive ones but the SALES guy talked me out of it and just gave me hosa i think. he said it was unnecessary for such a short length. i have 50cm normal balanced trs cables (half a meter). does it matter over such a short run?


on a 50cm run, it won't really make a noticable difference enough to warant to cost of replacing them.

Hosa, in fairness are the better of the pre-made brands, but there is still better out there for the same money. I would just look in to it next time you need to buy cables.
The thing I found with Hosa was I got a loose connection inside the TRS jack quite easily with them, but other than that I never had a problem with them in terms of signal quality over small runs. Stick with them until you need to replace, and if your in OZ, look in to Belden, Canare or Mogami which I think are readily available over there.

The worst, are the Proel (AKA Brennel) cables which look exactly like Neutrik knock offs. Out of every 5 sold, we got 2 back faulty and the manufacturing quality was just plain awful.

Old Post Dec-27-2007 01:25 
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