Bit of a limp criticism from the UK but one none the less:

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DAVID MILIBAND AND DOUGLAS ALEXANDER COMMENT ON THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN GAZA (21/01/08) The Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, and the Secretary of State for International Development, Douglas Alexander, have issued a joint statement on the situation in Gaza. 'The recent escalation of violence between Gazans and Israelis is extremely grave. We deplore the fact that innocent civilians on both sides are suffering and the increasing number of casualties. Both Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace and security. We urge all parties to exercise restraint. 'The rising number of rocket and sniper attacks from Gaza into Israel is unacceptable, as is the number of Palestinian civilian casualties. We do not support Israel's decision to close all crossings into Gaza, preventing the delivery of vital humanitarian supplies as well as fuel to the Gaza power station. Reports that electricity has been cut due to fuel shortages are particularly alarming and require urgent attention. Continued fuel shortages will have immediate humanitarian consequences, including on the supply of clean water. We appeal to all parties to work for the reopening of the crossings. The UK will pursue this with Israel, the PA, the UN, the EU and other partners. 'Israeli security and justice for Palestinians will not be achieved by cutting off fuel or by firing rockets. Both sides have a responsibility to support the Peace Process launched at Annapolis. The situation on the ground is an important part of this. Palestinian security efforts and Israel's reopening of the Gaza crossings need to support each other and the drive for a long-term peace.'

It's going to be like this at least until Bush is out of office. Olmert might have to go to.

i think its amazing the suffering militants are willing to let their people suffer rather than engage in any meaningful discourse for peace.

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i wonder when Israel realise collectively punishing an entire poppulation does not work? poverty breeds extremism

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think its amazing the suffering militants are willing to let their people suffer rather than engage in any meaningful discourse for peace.

Ha that's rich! Hamas are the elected representitives of those people you refer to, yet EVERYONE in the international community has refused to engage them whatsoever in any discourse, meaningful or not!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Ha that's rich! Hamas are the elected representitives of those people you refer to, yet EVERYONE in the international community has refused to engage them whatsoever in any discourse, meaningful or not!

how are you meant to engage in dialogue with a party that refuses to acknowledge israel's right to exist or prevent rocket attacks on israeli towns?

when things dont go their way they always resort to violence, just ask their fellow palestinians aligned with fatah. israel gets to do whatever the fuck she wants because hamas are not interested in a two state solution. israel's crimes against palestinians are a disgrace, and hamas just cant accept that (rightly or wrongly) they've lost. but hey! keep fighting the moral fight whilst your people suffer

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how are you meant to engage in dialogue with a party that refuses to acknowledge israel's right to exist or prevent rocket attacks on israeli towns?

Well flipping those terms around, its what can be said about the other side.

How can Israel not engage with a party that was democratically elected.

And i highly doubt its only Hamas committing crimes.

Last edited by Lemonad on Jan-23-2008 at 10:30

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how are you meant to engage in dialogue with a party that refuses to acknowledge israel's right to exist or prevent rocket attacks on israeli towns?

Same as you would any other group, the PLO's aim at one point, don't forget, was to drive the Jews into the sea (ie the destruction of Israel)

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when things dont go their way they always resort to violence, just ask their fellow palestinians aligned with fatah

Seriously, I cannot believe you've fallen into the trap that Fatah are somehow the peace-loving liberals of Palestine! The Al-Aqsa Matryrs are still very much active (hence an Israeli airstrike assassinating one of their commanders the other day)

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israel gets to do whatever the fuck she wants because hamas are not interested in a two state solution. israel's crimes against palestinians are a disgrace, and hamas just cant accept that (rightly or wrongly) they've lost. but hey! keep fighting the moral fight whilst your people suffer

What on Earth makes you think Israel wants a two state solution? You seen any evidence that they want to revert to '67 borders? In fact, Israel is the only country in the world that doesn't define its own borders...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Seriously, I cannot believe you've fallen into the trap that Fatah are somehow the peace-loving liberals of Palestine! The Al-Aqsa Matryrs are still very much active (hence an Israeli airstrike assassinating one of their commanders the other day)

hey, im certainly not saying fatah are all fluffy, but when there was a disagreement both went straight for the sword. hamas in particular need to decide whether they're a political force that engages in diplomacy or whether theyre an armed militia.

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Originally posted by George Smiley What on Earth makes you think Israel wants a two state solution? You seen any evidence that they want to revert to '67 borders? In fact, Israel is the only country in the world that doesn't define its own borders...

what do you think israel does want then? we won't find out until hamas realises that accepting israel's right to exist is the only way to stop the senseless killing. there was a period of "peace" after hamas recorded their historic election victory, but their refusal to accept israel says to me that perpetual war is what they want. israel could level gaza et al any time they wanted to, i dont believe they want a perpetual conflict.

i mean really, what's the point? "driving israel into the sea" is an absolute impossibility. what exactly are they achieving by continuing the struggle asides from giving israel an excuse to direct their almighty military on a defenceless populace?

both sides need to show restraint obviously. but what's the point of withdrawing IDF troops if hamas will not negotiate?

i'd like to know what you think hamas' goals are (asides from the whole destruction of israel). i'd like to know what you think they've achieved since being elected?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN hey, im certainly not saying fatah are all fluffy, but when there was a disagreement both went straight for the sword. hamas in particular need to decide whether they're a political force that engages in diplomacy or whether theyre an armed militia

I'm sorry but there is no difference whatsoever between the actions of Hamas (and everyone else) or Israel. Israel has acted aggressively, first, on many many occasions and continues to do so. The West Bank is a tinder box waiting to explode because Israel continues to build new settlements and has shown no desire whatsoever to dismantle the many settlements already built in the West Bank (as they have in the undesirable Gaza Strip)

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what do you think israel does want then?

At the moment it looks like a three state solution with Gaza independent and the West Bank colonised by Israel

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we won't find out until hamas realises that accepting israel's right to exist is the only way to stop the senseless killing.

I would agree but I disagree that the onus should be solely on Hamas - Israel causes as much trouble as Hamas and therefore the onus should equally be on the two

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there was a period of "peace" after hamas recorded their historic election victory, but their refusal to accept israel says to me that perpetual war is what they want. israel could level gaza et al any time they wanted to, i dont believe they want a perpetual conflict.

And Israel continues to build settlements so who's in the right exactly?

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i mean really, what's the point? "driving israel into the sea" is an absolute impossibility. what exactly are they achieving by continuing the struggle asides from giving israel an excuse to direct their almighty military on a defenceless populace?

Perhaps that isn't their imidiate aim? Perhaps they just want to be left alone in territory that is rightfully theirs (ie the occupied territories). Israel evacuated Gaza of settlements but that's all. Don't kid yourself they gave Gaza "independence" because they didn't. Gaza is nothing more than a prison and serves only to fuel hatred meaning there are more than enough people out for revenge

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both sides need to show restraint obviously. but what's the point of withdrawing IDF troops if hamas will not negotiate?

Is it Hamas who will not negotiate? As far as I can see it is Israel, America and the EU who have categorically stated they will not negotiate with Hamas...

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i'd like to know what you think hamas' goals are (asides from the whole destruction of israel). i'd like to know what you think they've achieved since being elected?

Well they forced out an unpopular Fatah commander from Gaza to restablish their elected responsibility of maintaining security for Gaza (it is also the responsibility of Hamas to provide security for the West Bank, but Israel and America bypassed that little aspect of democcracy when they declared the elections void and provided funds anf military support to the PA to provide security for the occupied territories). Also, Hamas' social policies are reletively sound - the reason they were elected in the first place.

What are their aims? Not sure. One thing I do know is that they are not a unique terrorist group and evolve like any others. Right now, officially, their aim is to retake Israel. But then that was the aim of the PLO until Oslo where Palestinians thought there was a genuine hope for peace. Israel destroyed that hope with their refusal to enter into final status negotiations after Oslo and the Palestinians are no longer naive enough to believe Israel will do now.

However, as I said, Hamas are just like any other group. If Israel showed a willingness to excersise constraint and a willingness to dismantle the West Bank settlements, I don't see why Hamas cannot be brought round to the idea of a two-state solution (indeed I believe Hamas moderates were on the verge of declaring such in a deal with Hamas last year when the process was hijacked by the more extreme branch when they kidnapped the soldier and held him hostage in Gaza knowing full well that Israel would not be able to show any constraint and begin their programme of collective punishment - so Israel and the extremists got what they wanted - no peace)

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i'd like to know what you think hamas' goals are (asides from the whole destruction of israel). i'd like to know what you think they've achieved since being elected?

Same question to you, but the flip side. What do you think Israel's goals are for the resolution for the conflict? What has Israel achieved during this long running conflict?