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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.
Question How to occupy a country succesfully: be the biggest and baddest terrorist around

COR Version: A conversation in the Obama thread reminded me of a blog post that I read a while back. Basically the guy argues that concerns for stuff like "human rights" and "democracy" in war zones has ultimately led to far more casualties (through protracted, chaotic insurgency + counterinsurgency warfare) than would have occurred if the invading armies in places like Vietnam and Iraq had used scorch-earth tactics, instituting practices like martial law, curfews combined with indiscriminate shooting-on-sight, and collective punishment of civilians in any case of resistance.

The idea is that if you're cruel, quick, and relentless from the very start, a war of occupation will end up being shorter and ultimately involve less casualties. The people you're invading, seeing that you take no prisoners and do anything it takes to win, will conclude that it's in their rational interest to ally with you and root out all resistance from among themselves.

This article is shorter than the blog post and has a lot of similar ideas. I'll quote the most relevant part, which is toward the end:

quote:
THE EASY AND RELIABLE WAY OF DEFEATING ALL INSURGENCIES EVERYWHERE

Perfectly ordinary regular armed forces, with no counterinsurgency doctrine or training whatever, have in the past regularly defeated insurgents, by using a number of well-proven methods. It is enough to consider these methods to see why the armed forces of the United States or of any other democratic country cannot possibly use them.

The simple starting point is that insurgents are not the only ones who can intimidate or terrorize civilians. For instance, whenever insurgents are believed to be present in a village, small town, or distinct city district—a very common occurrence in Iraq at present, as in other insurgency situations—the local notables can be compelled to surrender them to the authorities, under the threat of escalating punishments, all the way to mass executions. That is how the Ottoman Empire could control entire provinces with a few feared janissaries and a squadron or two of cavalry. The Turks were simply too few to hunt down hidden rebels, but they did not have to: they went to the village chiefs and town notables instead, to demand their surrender, or else. A massacre once in a while remained an effective warning for decades. So it was mostly by social pressure rather than brute force that the Ottomans preserved their rule: it was the leaders of each ethnic or religious group inclined to rebellion that did their best to keep things quiet, and if they failed, they were quite likely to tell the Turks where to find the rebels before more harm was done.

Long before the Ottoman Empire, the Romans knew how to combine sticks and carrots to obtain obedience and suppress insurgencies. Conquered peoples too proud to accept the benefits of their rule, from public baths and free circus shows to reliable law courts, were “de-bellicized” (a very Roman idea). It was done by killing all who dared to resist in arms—it made good combat practice for the legions—by selling into slavery any who were captured in battle, by leveling towns that held out under siege instead of promptly surrendering, and by readily accepting as peaceful subjects and future citizens all who submitted to Roman rule. In the first two and most successful centuries of imperial Rome, some 300,000 soldiers in all, only half of them highly trained legionary troops, were enough to secure a vast empire that stretched well beyond the Mediterranean basin that formed its core, today the territory of some thirty European, Middle Eastern, and North African states. The Romans could not disperse their soldiers in hundreds of cities, thousands of towns, and countless hamlets to repress riot or rebellion; the troops were needed to guard the frontiers. Instead, they relied on deterrence, which was periodically reinforced by exemplary punishments. Most inhabitants of the empire never rebelled after their initial conquest. A few tribes and nations had to be reconquered after trying and failing to overthrow Roman rule. A few simply refused to become obedient, and so they were killed off: “They make a wasteland and call it peace” was the bitter complaint of a Scottish chieftain (as reported by Tacitus).

Terrible reprisals to deter any form of resistance were standard operating procedure for the German armed forces in the Second World War, and very effective they were in containing resistance with very few troops. As against all the dramatic films and books that describe the heroic achievements of the resistance all over occupied Europe, military historians have documented the tranquillity that the German occupiers mostly enjoyed, and the normality of collaboration, not merely by notorious traitors such as the incautious French poet or the failed Norwegian politician but by vast numbers of ordinary people. Polish railwaymen, for example, secured the entire sustenance of the German eastern front. As for the daring resistance attacks that feature in films, they did happen occasionally, but not often, and not because of any lack of bravery in fighting the routinely formidable Germans but because of the terrible punishments they inflicted on the population.

Occupiers can thus be successful without need of any specialized counterinsurgency methods or tactics if they are willing to out-terrorize the insurgents, so that the fear of reprisals outweighs the desire to help the insurgents or their threats. The Germans also established secure and economical forms of occupation by exploiting isolated resistance attacks to achieve much broader demonstration effects. Lone German dispatch riders were easily toppled by tensed wires or otherwise intercepted and killed, but then troops would arrive on the scene to burn or demolish the surrounding buildings or farms or the nearest village, seizing and killing anyone who aroused suspicion or just happened to be there. After word of the terrible deeds spread and was duly exaggerated, German dispatch riders could safely continue on their way, until reaching some other uninstructed part of the world, where the sequence would have to be repeated.

Likewise in the Vietnam War, the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese were skilled in using terror to secure their pervasive territorial control and very ready to use any amount of violence against civilians, from countless individual assassinations to mass executions, as in Hue in 1968. The Communist cause had its enthusiasts, “fellow travelers,” and opportunistic followers, but Vietnamese who were none of the above, and not outright enemies, were compelled to collaborate actively or passively by the threat of the violence so liberally used. That is exactly what the insurgents in Iraq are now doing, and this is no coincidence. All insurgencies follow the same pattern. Locals who are not sympathetic to begin with, who cannot be recruited to the cause, are compelled to collaborate by the fear of violence, readily reinforced by the demonstrative killing of those who insist on refusing to help the resistance. Neutrality is not an option.

By contrast, the capacity of American armed forces to inflict collective punishments does not extend much beyond curfews and other such restrictions, inconvenient to be sure and perhaps sufficient to impose real hardship, but obviously insufficient to out-terrorize insurgents. Needless to say, this is not a political limitation that Americans would ever want their armed forces to overcome, but it does leave the insurgents in control of the population, the real “terrain” of any insurgency.


Thoughts?

Old Post May-30-2008 20:27  United States
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gehzumteufel
In your ass



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: so cal

I will be honest and admit I didn't read past the first paragraph of the blog post, but, the US can't win because we are not ultimately feared. The US is known to be too regulatory. Along with the EU. Russia on the other hand, can, and is, merciless.


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Old Post May-30-2008 20:43  Russia
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

Well, naturally it's possible. But democracy undermines effective military policy as much if not more than it undermines effective economic policy, so it's not practical in our circumstances.

Old Post May-30-2008 23:06 
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Dervish
Your opinion matters.



Registered: Dec 2003
Location:

Bullshit utter and unending bullshit.

As an example the British Empire (the biggest in history) was from a small island. Yes the gun boat diplomacy worked to an extent.

But if you control larger initially unstable populations then make them stable and they then develop they will become organised and get rid of you.

In Iraq if we were total cunts the whole country would hate us, then we establish them give them development and they organise an effective resistance. It's fairly simple.

In Iraq all we should think about is egress, egress, egress. We should develop it and ditch it.

Do you not think the entire middle east is watching???

If the Saudi Kingdom started losing control because its country turned against it because it supplied the USA (now randomly killing people in this hypothetical situation) with oil would they turn off the tap to save themselfs? Fucking right they would.

And I presume we've all seen the correlation charts demonstrating the inverse relationship between the strength of the US economy and oil price?


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Old Post May-30-2008 23:20 
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Fibonacci
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2007
Location: somewhere drinking, whore-mongering, chain-smoking, and gambling - all with an in-your-face attitude

If the tactics of those "empires" were so successful, why aren't they around today?

The romans lost their stability primarily due to increasingly overwhelming barbarian invasions especially from the germanic areas. Then they collapsed from within. The remnants formed the Byzantine /holy roman empire. Which eventually collapsed due to similar reasons.

The ottoman empire fell after WW1. The Soviet empire fell to economic competition with the united states. Most satellite states were all too eager to separate.

These gunboat tactics might work in the short run, but it's inaccurate to suggest that these tactics were "successful." If we were slaughtering iraqis more than we are now, there would be an international outcry and tons of posts like this over TA. Popular opinion is really a problem, and that people are not well educated enough about the facts.

Old Post May-31-2008 18:23  United States
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