I see some people talking about compress kick + bass together but they mean about sidechaining right?

I'm crazy or they think that kick and bass need compression to have the same dynamics? I hope this is wrong because I never did it... I only sidechain kick to bass (using compressor)...

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They are most likely talking about routing the kick and bass to an aux bus and putting a compressor on the aux bus. Its not the same thing as sidechaining. In this scenario they will put a compressor on the bass track that is sidechained to the kick and then the output of both the kick and bass are routed to an aux bus where they will place a second compressor.

There are many ways to produce excellent songs. Some producers will put their kick and bass into a group and run a compressor over it using settings to enhance the groove, or a limiter.

It's handy having similar instruments in groups anyway, whether compressing the group or not, just because you can quickly set the level of the group, eq the group, use automation, etc etc. It's generally good for workflow and CPU usage.

Other producers will use sidechain compression and be done with it. That's also totally valid.

Easiest way to find out if it works for you is to listen to how your low end sounds and consider whether or not compression might improve things. Then try it out. It may be that it's not something you feel you need to do.

Why kill the dynamics in the lower end spectrum by compressing the kick and bass together?

This would technically have a similar effect to the sidechain though right? Because when the kick peaks, the entire channel group will be compressed, meaning that the kick will duck the bass..?

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quote:

Originally posted by spolitta Why kill the dynamics in the lower end spectrum by compressing the kick and bass together?

Really have to agree with spolitta here. I know I had heard in the past that this technique is supposed to help make the bass and kick "gel" a bit more, but I personally have not really had any better success using this method versus just choosing a kick and bass that sound good together and using some well placed EQing.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips This would technically have a similar effect to the sidechain though right? Because when the kick peaks, the entire channel group will be compressed, meaning that the kick will duck the bass..?

Not really, because with a sidechained compressor, the ducking happens on the bass in response to only the kick, where as with a compressed aux bus, the compressor is reacting to the combined signal of the kick and the bass. With a sidechain, the kick is not compressed at all, only the bass.

Last edited by Eric J on Sep-06-2008 at 04:38

Yeah, I suppose thats the obvious difference with it.
I can see theoretically how this could make a sound gel better, because you'll wind up with an overall more even level, when the kick isn't on, the bass will take over the headroom it leaves behind and Vice versa.
But I'm really not sure I'm in for all these compression tricks, I think you can do better with good original sound selection and a good understanding of basic EQ and compression strategies than you can with this sort of thing...

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Last edited by kitphillips on Sep-06-2008 at 04:54

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I can see theoretically how this could make a sound gel better, because you'll wind up with an overall more even level, when the kick isn't on, the bass will take over the headroom it leaves behind and Vice versa.

This really only would work on things like an "Oompa..Oompa" bass line where the kick and bass never hit at the same time. If your bass line and kick ever DO hit at the same time then the compressor is going to clamp down ever harder, especially if the two are not EQ'd to stay out of each others' way. This is almost always going to be a problem in EDM because you rarely have a situation where there isn't SOME overlap in the frequency ranges of your kick and bass.

You may be able to apply some very LIGHT compression to an aux bus and get desirable results, but honestly, the reward is so small that its not even worth it in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips But I'm really not sure I'm in for all these compression tricks, I think you can do better with good original sound selection and a good understanding of basic EQ and compression strategies than you can with this sort of thing...

I agree, this is exactly the point I was making in my previous post. I have had the most success by using a good kick sample and choosing a good bass sample or patch and tweaking from there. Now, recently I have been throwing an 1176-LN compressor on the bass track, but thats mainly because I like the sound of my basses going through that particular compressor, not necessarily for massive amounts of peak control. The 1176-LN does add a bit of "punch" to my basses that is not present without the compressor. It will even add a good amount of "growl" if I put it in "all buttons in" mode.

Last edited by Eric J on Sep-06-2008 at 05:08

I'm starting to suspect this sort of compression fiddling is more of a house thing, its very popular with electro producers...
I have noticed though that it does actually work OK where you have a long bass (one which where the kick hits over the top of the bass) it sounds a bit similar to a sidechain, with a very "ducky" effect. that's what I was saying (not very well) before...
Sidechain does still work better for that sort of thing, but if you had say, a rolling bass which hit on the kick occasionally, I think it might still work.

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i'm not really a fan of compressing kick and bass together. when you have bass notes which fall on or off beat, you're going to have the kick varying in level too much, unless you use really light compression. in this case, why bother at all?

if you had a fairly consistent bassline, in relation to the effect on the kick, i guess it would be a good technique to use.

Ok guys, so I will make some new routes in my startup mixer preset here...

I'm working on Logic 8 pro.

New routes:

* Kick (Set kick to mono) (EQ - Low pass and high cut at 10Khz)
* Main Bass (EQ - Low cut at 60 Hz and high cut at 11 Khz)
* Sidechain the Bass with the Kick signal from a pre send.
* Route Kick + Bass to a stereo bus.
* Add compression in this stereo bus:
Threshold: -8db
Attack: 0ms
Release: 80ms
Ratio: 9:1
Knee: hard to soft

* Route all other drums sounds (hats, claps, snares, ride, crash), including "loops bus" to another stereo bus called BEATS.
* Route the Kick + Bass bus also to the BEATS bus.
So I will have all drums, loops, kick and bass to a bus called BEATS.
* Now I put a little bit of paralell compression and limiter in this BEATS bus.

Well done?

Any ideas?

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quote:

Originally posted by cristianokeller * Kick (Set kick to mono) (EQ - Low pass and high cut at 10Khz)

This can be subjective because you have to decide which part of the frequency the bass and kick are going to occupy. For example: You need to ask yourself: Is the kick going to dominate below 50Hz? Or is the Bass going to dominate that low? This is entirely subjective on the type of music and sound you are going for.

Generally I start off with my kick, take a look at what frequencies that occupies and then work the bass around that. Remember also, you'll need to identify which part of the kick frequency you want to keep and which parts you can live without. Most of the kicks I use dominate in the 100-120 range on the low and around 2000 on the high, so I make sure nothing else is dominate in that range. A lot of it is trial and error.

Most typical trance tracks allow the kick to dominate that low end, but there are some tracks with sub-bass drones that dominate that low, in which case, you'd need to low cut the frequencies on the KICK that the sub-bass is occupying. Remember its all about giving each element its own space, and thats going to be particularly important with the kick and bass. Spend some time getting this right.

quote:

Originally posted by cristianokeller * Main Bass (EQ - Low cut at 60 Hz and high cut at 11 Khz)

You should always customize your EQ settings so that the kick and bass sit together well. This is going to differ depending on your bass sound and your bass pattern. I wouldn't have a "default" here because its going to be different with every track.

quote:

Originally posted by cristianokeller * Sidechain the Bass with the Kick signal from a pre send.

I always have a second kick track with no output that is used as the sidechain source signal. This way you can still have your sidechained compressor triggered even in parts where the kick is not playing. In addition, you may wany your sidechain kick peaking up to 0db, but you should probably have your audible kick peaking at arond -8 db so you have headroom for other track elements.

quote:

Originally posted by cristianokeller * Route Kick + Bass to a stereo bus.

This was discussed earlier in the thread. I do not believe this is necessary, but you can do it this way if you want. Personally, I have the Kick and Bass on separate aux busses. This becomes especially useful if you have more than one bass pattern in a track.

quote:

Originally posted by cristianokeller * Add compression in this stereo bus: Threshold: -8db Attack: 0ms Release: 80ms Ratio: 9:1 Knee: hard to soft

Again, since each track is different I wouldn't use any kind of "default" here. You need to set your compressor up to react to the sound and pattern that you are using. Settings that sound good on one track may be totally wrong for the next track.

quote:

Originally posted by cristianokeller * Route all other drums sounds (hats, claps, snares, ride, crash), including "loops bus" to another stereo bus called BEATS.

This is fine, except I always have my snare and crashed on a separate bus. This is useful when you want to filter down the hats going into a break but still want to have a crash at the end of a measure going in to a break.

quote:

Originally posted by cristianokeller * Route the Kick + Bass bus also to the BEATS bus. So I will have all drums, loops, kick and bass to a bus called BEATS.

I wouldn't do this for the same reasons as above. It limits your ability to do things like apply filter sweeps to your bass, kick or drums separately. Many times I'll high pass the bass for a 1/2 measure going into a different part of the song and this setup would prevent that.