DRINK!

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Hey Joe, you're rich! Congratulations!

Joe The Plumber ain't got shit on Doug The Logger.

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Everyone has an opinion. Mine just happens to be a little more informed than most.
Electronic Music Critic: Near-Daily Ruminations Of Music I Own, In Alphabetical Order!

Here's Joe the Plumber. Give 'em hell, Joe! Oops--wrong Joe...

Joe

quote:

Exclusive: Obama – ‘Spread the Wealth Around’ Reveals Socialist Plan for America Interview with Joe Wurzelbacher The Editors At a recent campaign appearance in Ohio, Sen. Obama was approached by plumber Joe Wurzelbacher, who has concerns about Obama’s proposed tax policies. FamilySecurityMatters.org’s Pam Meister had a candid conversation with him about his experience. PAM MEISTER: You recently met Sen. Obama on the campaign trail in Ohio, and you asked him a question about his tax policies. What exactly was your question for him? JOE WURZELBACHER: Initially, I started off asking him if he believed in the American Dream and he said yes, he does – and then I proceeded to ask him then why he’s penalizing me for trying to fulfill it. He asked, “what do you mean,” and I explained to him that I’m planning on purchasing this company – it’s not something I’m gonna purchase outright, it’s something I’m going to have to make payments on for years – but essentially I’m going to buy this company, and the profits generated by that could possibly put me in that tax bracket he’s talking about and that bothers me. It’s not like I would be rich; I would still just be a working plumber. I work hard for my money, and the fact that he thinks I make a little too much that he just wants to redistribute it to other people. Some of them might need it, but at the same time, it’s not their discretion to do it – it’s mine. PM: You’re a plumber, and you’re looking to buy your own plumbing business? JW: Correct. PM: Would that plumbing business employ other people or would it just employ you? JW: Eventually it would employ other people. Right now it’s a two man shop and it’s got a very good footprint and a very good reputation, so eventually I would want to put other people out there. I don’t want to get huge because if you get too big your quality goes, but I definitely wouldn’t mind having two good plumbers out there with me working. PM: So a potential tax increase – how do you see that affecting your ability to hire more people to work with you at your company? JW: Obviously these are hypothetical questions to a degree because I don’t know what the economy is going to do… PM: Of course. JW: Essentially what that would do is, I’d have to see how much money is available after everything else is paid, to see if I can one, afford a new vehicle, two, outfit it, and then three, pay a good salary. And if I’m being taxed too much, one of those three things is going to get shorted. One, I won’t be able to buy as good a good vehicle or I won’t stock it as well, or the guy I hire – if I’m able to hire somebody – is not going to make as much as he should. PM: Obama gave you quite a long answer, I see, on Jake Tapper’s blog on ABC News. He did give you quite an extensive answer to your question talking about a 50% tax credit for healthcare costs, that sort of thing, and he talked about the reason he’s doing this – saying 95% of small businesses make less than $250,000 a year. He talked about your time as a plumber– you said you’ve been a plumber for 15 years? JW: Yes. PM: Okay, and then he talked about 10, 15 years ago maybe you weren’t making that sort of money, how would you feel – if you were just starting out, or maybe looking back – the kind of tax cut that he’s promising for other people, does that still make you think that that’s a great idea? JW: No. See, I believe in working for what I get. I don’t want to say it’s a handout, but essentially that’s what it comes down to. You’re going to tax someone else more that’s been working hard to fulfill the American Dream and you’re gonna give it to other people who – I’m not saying they don’t work as hard, but I’m sure some of them don’t – and I don’t think it’s right just to give it to them or reduce taxes on their part and hike it up on my part like a teeter totter to bring it back even. So no, that wouldn’t – well, let me rephrase that. It would appeal to me because back then I was struggling. That kind of thing appeals to me – anybody wants to cut my taxes, I look at it very seriously, it’s like, it sounds great. But you gotta see what the other hand is doing too. PM: Still, in that vein, Obama says he doesn’t want to “punish” you, but he wants to – let me see if I can see what his exact quote was… JW: Redistribute the wealth. PM: …taxing small businesses making $250,000 and above is going to help the people “behind you.” And yes, “spreading the wealth around.” How did you feel about that? JW: As soon as he said it, he contradicted himself. He doesn’t want to “punish” me, but – when you use the word “but,” you pretty much negate everything you just said prior to that. So he does want to punish me, he does want to punish me for working harder to – you know, my big thing is the American Dream. I work hard. You know, I was poor; my mom raised me and my brother by herself for a very long time until my dad came along. So I know what it’s like to suffer. It’s not like I was born with a silver spoon. Usually it was a wooden spoon and it was on my butt. It was just a contradiction of terms, what he said: he doesn’t want to punish me but he wants to redistribute my wealth. And what I mean when I say my wealth, I mean the collective. Eventually – I mean, just to sound a little silly here, but you need rich people. I mean, who are you going to work for? PM: Do you fear this is the possibility of America turning more down the socialist road if Obama does become elected and if he is able to implement these policies? JW: Very much so. You start giving people stuff, and then they start expecting it – and that scares me. A lot of people expect it now. They get upset when their check’s late, they get upset when they don’t get as many benefits as they used to, or when different government agencies are cut or spending is cut here and there for whatever reason – people get upset at that. And that’s because they’re used to getting it and they want more. I mean, everyone’s always gonna want more. People work the system left and right to get more out of welfare, to get more out of state assistance, federal assistance. And if government’s there for them, they’re gonna keep on trying to manipulate it to get more out of it. You got people that come along and say, “Hey, I wanna help you people,” I mean, they’re all ears! They’re like, “Hey, you can help me more, I don’t have to work as hard, I don’t have to do as much, and you’re gonna give me this? Man, that’s great, you’re a good guy.” So yeah, it goes down the socialist – His healthcare plan scares me. You know, I don’t like people going without healthcare, but it’s not my job to pay for everyone else’s healthcare. It’s hard enough paying for my own. I like the idea of deregulation as far as – nationally, you know, you only get insurance companies that can work in this state – if you deregulate that then you have more people competing and then the prices would go lower. It seems pretty simple to me. It probably isn’t that simple – but you flood the market with more products, usually they go down cheaper. PM: In a recent survey of America’s chief executive officers, a full 69% of them said they were worried about an Obama presidency. Some even say he could plunge us into a depression or even bankruptcy in about three years. If you are to buy this business, you yourself would be a CEO, essentially, of a smaller business. Do you agree with those CEOs and if so, how might that change whether you take the risk of buying your business should Obama become elected? JW: You know, I don’t know enough about that to give you a real intelligent answer. It does concern me. I’ve listened lately and I’ve heard he’s proposed more spending. You spend more, you gotta get it from somewhere. I don’t think he’s gonna cut any of the government down, in fact I think he wants to make it bigger. And eventually, you get it too big, it’s gonna topple. In essence, I suppose I do agree for a little bit, but I just don’t know enough as far as the grand scheme like that. In three years…I wouldn’t feel comfortable stating something like that. PM: That’s fair enough. Could it be that people won’t be as productive? If you’re going to be paying more taxes, why should you be more productive when you could possibly take home the same amount without being as productive? Do you agree with that? JW: That’s the catch right there. Some people will agree with that. Some people will say, “Well, I’m not gonna work for the stars or shoot for ‘em because if I do, I’m gonna be punished, or I’m gonna be subjugated to more taxes,” or for whatever they wanna do. So yeah, I would agree to that to a point. Some people will say, “Well you know, I still want this, I’m still gonna work hard and try to make that happen for myself” And then other people are gonna sit back – and then you look at mediocrity for the country, and I don’t like that idea. PM: What do you think that Obama’s tax plan will do to entrepreneurship in general in this country? JW: It’ll definitely make people think twice about it. It’s not something that they’re gonna just rush into. It’s a tax increase, but it’s not a 50% tax increase. It’s not gonna keep everybody from doing it – some people might decide not to, but I don’t think it would keep everybody from doing it. PM: Now did Obama tell you that you would receive some sort of tax cut? JW: He talked about suspending capital gains to a certain amount… To be honest with you, I don’t want to say I tuned him out – because as he started, he pretty much regurgitated what he said in his debate, first one, second one, and a lot of his rallies. What he said to me was pretty much word for word what he’s been saying for the last couple months. So when he started down that path, it’s like, ”Okay, I’ve already heard this, Obama, give me something different.” PM: There was nothing new in his answer? JW: No, there was nothing new. You know, I didn’t appreciate that, actually. PM: There’s a clip of you that’s been shown on television, and it’s all over the Internet on YouTube as well. It’s a very short clip. Do you think it accurately portrays the exchange that you had with Sen. Obama? Obviously there was more to it. JW: I haven’t seen too much of it to be honest with you – I’ve been working yesterday and today, and the evenings spent with my boy or with my family. So I haven’t spent too much time looking at it. I did notice – I wish the newspaper people, talk shows, I wish they would start off with the very beginning: “Do you believe the American dream?” That was essentially what it came down to for me – was do you believe in the American Dream, you’re not going to punish people for going for it? PM: To you, what exactly is the American Dream? Can you explain that? JW: Me personally? PM: Yeah, you personally. JW: Me personally, my American Dream was to have a house, a dog, a couple rifles, a bass boat. I believe in living life easy and simple. I don’t have grand designs. I don’t want much. I just wanna be able to take care of my family and do things with them outdoors and that’s about it, really. I don’t have a “grand scheme” thing. My American Dream is just more personal to me as far as working, making a good living and being able to provide for my family, college for my son. Things like that – simple things in life, that’s really what it comes down to for me. That’s my dream. PM: Do you think your question surprised Obama, caught him off guard at all? JW: Well that was actually my intent. Most people, you ask them “do you believe in the American Dream?” Nine times out of ten they’ll sit there and go, “Yeah, of course!” That’s where he messed up, because as soon as I asked him that, his answer shows that he doesn’t believe in the American Dream. You know, like the question you asked before – he pretty much contradicted himself. “I don’t want to punish you but – “ Well, you’re going to anyways. PM: Has there been a lot of media interest in your story? Have you been getting a lot of calls from the media asking you to talk about this? JW: Neil Cavuto, I was on his show earlier today, just a phone interview for about five minutes. He asked a couple of questions. Then a talk show – Trey Ware – he has a conservative talk show down in San Antonio, Texas – he picked up on it. I’ve had friends call me from all over the nation, saying they heard Rush Limbaugh quote something from me or they’ve heard Hannity quote something. I guess it’s getting quite a bit of play. PM: What kind of feedback are you getting from friends and family, other than the fact they have heard you being quoted on some very popular talk shows? JW: Well, my son thinks it’s absolutely the most incredible thing in the world. He loves – I always teach him to speak his mind and to know what he’s talking about before he speaks his mind because usually there’s always someone in the room who will know what you’re talking about. So he just thinks it’s really neat. My friends – well, a lot of them will come to me and ask me political questions just because I think it’s important to know about it – and so they know they’ll get a straight answer from me, even if I don’t like they guy or I do like the guy, you know, I’ll give them the pros and cons of it and let them make their own decisions on it. But some, they know it’s pretty important to me. I was kind of actually nervous about doing any of this, you know, answering calls and going on that show. But they all, you know, said that I always answer them good and so they just said go for it, so they’ve been very supportive. PM: Do you hope Sen. McCain will talk more about this issue during Wednesday’s debate, you know, taxes for small businesses? JW: There’s a lot of things I wish McCain would say. As far as this, yes, I would like him to speak. Not so much about small businesses, but just people in general that make this money. It’s not up to them to help America, I mean – let me rephrase that. It’s not – they shouldn’t be taxed more because they’ve succeeded. That’s envy and jealousy. Get off your butt and go work. Don’t sit there and expect the government to give it to you. So I wouldn’t mind him speaking on it like that. I know he couldn’t say it probably like that because that’d turn a lot of people off. But it just – yeah, I guess I would like him to speak about that and a bunch of other things. I’d like to hear him talk about immigration and what he plans on doing about that and with our borders. I mean, there’s a lot of things that haven’t even been addressed in the last two debates. PM: You’re right about that. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. JW: Thank you so much.

Joe's got a good point but Mccain still has gotta go. The amount of debt he will rack up in his endless foreign policy adventures will dwarf any harm to the economy that a tax hike on the rich from Obama will do. Debt = a tax on yourself and your kids 20 years from now.

Another dumb American hick

quote:

Originally posted by Utencil Another dumb American hick

Thanks for the valuable insight! Say hi to Vick for me, we've missed him!

joe the plumber is overly optimistic and likely full of shit! plumbers with two employees likely aren't profiting 250K after expenses, they probably aren't in ohio, they probably aren't reporting all of the income anyway, and the number of plumbers in that category is definitely very few. Furthermore, a tax increase from 33% to 39% isn't about to kill any dreams. An extra 5% on income over 250K is actually a much smaller effective tax increase depending on what is done with the marginal brackets below the top rate (and how much income is being taxed). If Joe is going to make that much money he can always just hire a crafty tax lawyer to reduce his burden. In any event, he will probably inflate his expenses to reduce his taxable income.


i also like how he assumes everyone has the same capability to become rich, and if they don't they are automatically lazy. Another simpleton assumption from the all knowing middle american.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 joe the plumber is overly optimistic and likely full of shit! plumbers with two employees likely aren't profiting 250K after expenses, they probably aren't in ohio, they probably aren't reporting all of the income anyway, and the number of plumbers in that category is definitely very few. Furthermore, a tax increase from 33% to 39% isn't about to kill any dreams. An extra 5% on income over 250K is actually a much smaller effective tax increase depending on what is done with the marginal brackets below the top rate (and how much income is being taxed). If Joe is going to make that much money he can always just hire a crafty tax lawyer to reduce his burden. In any event, he will probably inflate his expenses to reduce his taxable income. i also like how he assumes everyone has the same capability to become rich, and if they don't they are automatically lazy. Another simpleton assumption from the all knowing middle american.

That was a bit aggressive for you. It's not Joe's specifics that matter here, it's the philosophical argument. Your argument is basically embodies the socialist "collective good" argument of wealth redistribution (i.e. you didn't create the wealth, the government owns it all and should distribute and redistribute it as it sees fit because Big Brother is all knowing and can more effectively and efficiently allocate your resources for the betterment of all of us...).

Why don't you think Joe can make $250K in pre-tax revenues per year if he owns and operates his own business? What do you know about the plumbing industry? That's a horribly arrogant thing to say unless you happen to be some sort of industry expert. Are only white collar businesses allowed to make that kind of money? Joe is not talking about that level of income as someone else's hourly employee, he's talking about building a business so he can break out of the rat race and all you're doing is reinforcing the negatives and telling him he can't. I thought Barack was the party of "YES WE CAN!" not "NO YOU CAN'T SO DON'T EVEN BOTHER TRYING YOU STUPID SIMPLETON HICK!" How is Joe to get ahead of he is optimistic and you thumb your nose at him? Isn't "middle america" representative of the very group of people Obama purports to want to help? And you treat them like this? Like a bunch of bumbling idiots? How are they to survive without the mighty government?!!!

Typical leftist elitism.

Last edited by Shakka on Oct-16-2008 at 17:09

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Seems like this guy is being used as a talking point and probably won't go away anytime soon. This definitely opens another point of debate for McCain. Now all the discourse is going to be about small businesses and taxes.

Why did the right wait all this time to bring these points up? Obama's plan has been out there from the beginning. Did they really need Joe the Plumber to help them find angle of comparison?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka That was a bit aggressive for you. It's not Joe's specifics that matter here, it's the philosophical argument. Your argument is basically embodies the socialist "collective good" argument of wealth redistribution (i.e. you didn't create the wealth, the government owns it all and should distribute and redistribute it as it sees fit because Big Brother is all knowing and can more effectively and efficiently allocate your resources for the betterment of all of us...). Why don't you think Joe can make $250K in pre-tax revenues per year if he owns and operates his own business? What do you know about the plumbing industry? That's a horribly arrogant thing to say unless you happen to be some sort of industry expert. Are only white collar businesses allowed to make that kind of money? Joe is not talking about that level of income as someone else's hourly employee, he's talking about building a business so he can break out of the rat race and all you're doing is reinforcing the negatives and telling him he can't. I thought Barack was the party of "YES WE CAN!" not "NO YOU CAN'T SO DON'T EVEN BOTHER TRYING YOU STUPID SIMPLETON HICK!" How is Joe to get ahead of he is optimistic and you thumb your nose at him? Isn't "middle america" representative of the very group of people Obama purports to want to help? And you treat them like this? Like a bunch of bumbling idiots? How are they to survive without the mighty government?!!! Typical leftist elitism.

you arguments are all valid. my main point of contention with people like joe is that they are opposed to something that likely will not affect them personally. I'm just tired of hearing people oppose taxes because they "may" or "could" one day make that much. The likelihood of Joe making 250K is far less, and much more distant in time than me earning 500K (and i support these taxes).

i know what plumbers generally make because i've done tax work for plumbers.

I don't think all middle americans are bumbling idiots, warren buffet is from nebraska.

i never said a plumber couldn't have revenue over 250K. i said that it is unlikley that the taxable portion of the revenue (revenue minus expenses) will exceed 250K. THe only way a plumber is making that kind of cash is if they get some big contract work with commerical buildings or residential developments. As we all know, those types of jobs are normally given to companies with ties, that give kickbacks, or hire dirt cheap labor. The stars have to align correctly to get those big money contracts, and it is more appropriately described as a dream than real possibility.

we certainly disagree on the merits of tax increases, and that's fine. My problem isn't his position against tax increases (he's obviously entitled to his position), although i'm not entirely sure he could fully support his position on the basis of economics and social justice.

EDIT: Also, Joe the plumber, who doesn't support tax increases, is also likely the same guy who supported the war and wants a strong military. People like joe don't seem to get it: less revenue means you need to decrease expenses. I'm all for lower taxes, however, we need to get to an equilibrium with revenue/expenses. I wonder if people like Joe would support military funding cuts; Military spendingis the second largest government expense. How about cutting medicare? (the largest expense) How about cutting agricultural funding? (3rd largest). I suspect Joe wouldn't support cutting any of those expenses, even though he wants lower taxes. As for me, cutting taxes means cutting expenses. I'm for cutting military spending, and a bunch of other major expenses (with the exception of health and education).

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Oct-16-2008 at 18:27