with the lights out, it's less dangerous. Here we are now, entertain us. I feel stupid, and contagious. Here we are now, entertain us. A mulatto, an albino, a mosquito, my libido, yeah.

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Originally posted by The17sss If people thought Joe the Plumber was some kind of stumble for Barack Obama, a rediscovered interview from 2001 should dispel any doubts about Barack Obama’s redistributionism. Seven years ago, Obama told Chicago Public Radio that the Warren Court was too conservative and missed its opportunity to redistribute wealth on a much grander scale. In fact, Obama wanted them to break the Constitution and reorder American society far outside of what the founders intended.

What exactly is wrong about redistributing wealth to create a more fair society where opportunity exists for everyone, not just for those that can afford it?

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Instead, Obama sees community organizing as the essential path to move from a Constitution of personal liberties to a Constitution of federal mandates. He wants a new governing document that essentially forces both the federal and state governments to redistribute wealth, and he sees that as the natural outcome of the civil rights movement. That certainly smells of socialism on a far grander scale than ever attempted in the US, with the New Deal and Great Societies looking like pale imitations of Obama’s vision.

And a £500b bailout to the banks from the Republicans?! That the hell was that then?! Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious you have no idea what "socialism" means and you're merely using the term as an insult. You don't even know what redistribution means or why it's supposed to be a bad thing!

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That economic direction has been an abject failure everywhere it has been tried, and in many cases resulted in famines that killed millions of people.

Marxism maybe, but if you think Obama is a Marxist you're quite frankly an idiot. Attempts to create Marxist societies in the past may have failed, but some of the most successful countries in the world are so because of their socialist policies. Look at Britain's National Health Service, the envy of most of the world. We all pay a proportion of what we earn so that every person in this country, from tramps on the street to CEOs have the right to free health care - in my country that is our right. What about the Scandinavian countries (that in the other thread were accused of being Marxist countries)? They offer the best living standards in the world, practically no poverty whatsoever compared to America

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Originally posted by George Smiley What exactly is wrong about redistributing wealth to create a more fair society where opportunity exists for everyone, not just for those that can afford it?

Who and why does someone get to say what is and is not "fair" provided nothing has been achieved illegally or out of the bounds of the regulations in place?

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And a £500b bailout to the banks from the Republicans?! That the hell was that then?!

It was a bipartisan bill, George. A bipartisan bill that nobody likes. Kindly rephrase your critique.

the people we elect to represent us get to chose what is fair on our behalf... or at least that is how it is supposed to work in theory


If the people want to elect a house, senate, and executive who thinks that giving a tax break to the lower class and increasing taxes at the upper end is fair then that is what is fair

___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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Originally posted by Zild the people we elect to represent us get to chose what is fair on our behalf... or at least that is how it is supposed to work in theory

How what is supposed to work? That's not what I was taught, and I don't believe the Constitution says that anywhere.

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If the people want to elect a house, senate, and executive who thinks that giving a tax break to the lower class and increasing taxes at the upper end is fair then that is what is fair

That is absurd! You're basically saying the definition of fair is simply what some elected official says it is with no burden of proof or standard of judgement. If they say it's fair, then by definition, it is fair. THAT IS SCARY.

The constitution is just a piece of paper that isn't worth much anymore as far as I'm concerned. It has been gutted and ripped to shreds over the last decade. I agree that taxes aren't in the Constitution.

___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

Latest Mix

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Originally posted by Shakka Who and why does someone get to say what is and is not "fair" provided nothing has been achieved illegally or out of the bounds of the regulations in place?

Because people born into money have an unfair advantage over those not born into money, even somebody like you can't possibly be pig headed enough to deny that?! Fairness means equal opportunities for all...

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Originally posted by Shakka How what is supposed to work? That's not what I was taught, and I don't believe the Constitution says that anywhere.

Who cares what the constitution says?! What is it supposed to be some kind of religious document or summat?! Jesus! It's merely the law written down over 200 years ago! How can it still be relevant to the modern world! What a complete and utter joke!

But in order to help you decipher what Zild just told you, in a democracy, the people choose the people they want to elect them based on what vision those people have. If the people want a right wing nut job then they have the right to choose one to represent them. If they want radical socialist changes to society to even things up a bit, that is also their right

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That is absurd! You're basically saying the definition of fair is simply what some elected official says it is with no burden of proof or standard of judgement. If they say it's fair, then by definition, it is fair. THAT IS SCARY.

What do you define as "fair"?

N

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Originally posted by Zild The constitution is just a piece of paper that isn't worth much anymore as far as I'm concerned. It has been gutted and ripped to shreds over the last decade. I agree that taxes aren't in the Constitution.

Read -

Article I; section 2, paragraph 3
Article I; section 8
Article I; section 9

Amendment XVI

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...e.html#articlei

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Originally posted by George Smiley Because people born into money have an unfair advantage over those not born into money, even somebody like you can't possibly be pig headed enough to deny that?! Fairness means equal opportunities for all...

So money is the scale by which we determine what defines fairness? What if I have more friends than you--is that unfair? What if I have a stronger sense of ethics and honor than you--is that unfair? Seems to me you just have a case of money envy.

Furthermore, where does it say that the role of government is to make sure that these "unfair" injustices 1) don't take place and 2) are promptly corrected when they do occur? Isn't that just life, George? Can't you just agree that not everyone is exactly the same and that there will always be haves and have nots in the world? It is not the duty and responsibility of government to redistribute wealth to create some Brave New World dystopia. Equality of opportunity--not equality of outcome.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Who cares what the constitution says?! What is it supposed to be some kind of religious document or summat?! Jesus! It's merely the law written down over 200 years ago! How can it still be relevant to the modern world! What a complete and utter joke!

Well, seeing it is the bedrock foundation from which the U.S. system of government was created, I tend to think it matters a great deal. Being old doesn't make something irrelevant. It is a living document that is modified all the time. It is more than "the law." Apparently your understanding of it is not as deep as you seem to think.

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But in order to help you decipher what Zild just told you, in a democracy, the people choose the people they want to elect them based on what vision those people have. If the people want a right wing nut job then they have the right to choose one to represent them. If they want radical socialist changes to society to even things up a bit, that is also their right

But does that somehow empower them with the divine right of being the official arbiter of fairness? Isn't that a job that, at best, is better left to the courts and a jury of ones peers?

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What do you define as "fair"?

It doesn't even fucking matter, that's the point. Fair is some arbitrary standard that is subjective and has no place in black/white policy decisions.