When I am mixing in Cubase or any other program, I notice that when certain tracks or the master go in the red, I don't hear any clipping or distortion (unless you push it really hard the sound changes, but still no clipping).

Does this perhaps have to do with the fact that Cubase and other apps internally work at 32bit so you can't have clipping.

If that's true, can you simply go in the red as long as it sounds good, or can this give (clipping) problems when you will export your mixdown to wav, normally 16bit 44.1khz?

Why do manuals say you can't go in the red where in practice I don't seem to hear any problems? Anybody can explain this please? Thanks!

Last edited by Dance123 on Apr-05-2009 at 16:04

You can go on red as much as you like, as long as you do not export when it is red, even if you do export on red it can still sound the same, but you should always just avoid doing that.

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As far as i know, when im actually mixing/producing track, pre-master stage, i never touch red and leave around -3db of headroom for other effects if you mean the master channel. At final mixdown if it occasionly touches red i dont see a problem, i.e the odd kick makes it hit dot on max level, could always employ limiter, i hate them but just saying...sorry cant help more mate

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quote:

Originally posted by Subtle even if you do export on red it can still sound the same, but you should always just avoid doing that.

A track that peaks at less than, say, +1 dB, might sound the same on typical consumer or "prosumer" equipment if you don't listen very carefully. But the end result will definitely have distortion.

Also, the results are going to be unpredictable. When a track contains samples at "impossible" values for the output format, it's up to the sequencer/editor's discretion to decide what to do with it. I would not be surprised if this accounts for many instances of people claiming that the rendering quality is somehow different in Cubase/FL/Logic/Ableton and so on.

The most common behaviour is probably straight clipping, which makes the finished product more like a square wave and causes that nasty ear-splitting high-order distortion.

I should also mention that it is unlikely, but still possible, to damage your speakers with excessive clipping inside the sequencer. You actually do not need to be anywhere near the maximum power output of your speakers in order to do this, either. Severe clipping looks like a DC signal to a speaker, which will cause heat buildup in the coil as the cones cannot move. That can fry the coil and in some cases components around the coil.

Even putting out let's say 50 W of power to a 100 W speaker, you can still blow the tweeter by feeding it a sufficiently clipped signal. Just be careful. Try to avoid letting that master meter go red. Individual tracks don't matter if you're attenuating them at some later stage.

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I don't really look closely and it's never been a real problem. If you think it is, you could just pull the master down below clipping without compromising much as you're working in a 32bit float environment anyway.

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quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

but then againn: every sum adds up in rouding off: channel > group > master. Theoretically you should just seelct all channels (except subgroups, FX and master) and pull them all down.

Most headroom is preserved mixing -12db RMS on K14 scale. this means that you have peaks in the cubase master around -3/-5db

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Try to avoid letting that master meter go red. Individual tracks don't matter if you're attenuating them at some later stage.

Yeah, i try and avoid red master meter whenever, sometimes i just turn it up for brief moments, due to sensitive volume control.

Im not sure what you mean by attentuating individual channels at later stages though.

I remember in earlier days i actually exported tracks at red meter, those tracks are still in circulation hehe.
Anyways going red is probably one of the easiest things ever to avoid doing.

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So Diginut What is the effect on the speakers when you load a synth or hit a button on it and your shit just goes to +100db or more, I usually quickly power off my speakers, I guess that can save damage yeah?

This happens a few times a week so it is a concern

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut A track that peaks at less than, say, +1 dB, might sound the same on typical consumer or "prosumer" equipment if you don't listen very carefully. But the end result will definitely have distortion. Also, the results are going to be unpredictable. When a track contains samples at "impossible" values for the output format, it's up to the sequencer/editor's discretion to decide what to do with it. I would not be surprised if this accounts for many instances of people claiming that the rendering quality is somehow different in Cubase/FL/Logic/Ableton and so on. The most common behaviour is probably straight clipping, which makes the finished product more like a square wave and causes that nasty ear-splitting high-order distortion. I should also mention that it is unlikely, but still possible, to damage your speakers with excessive clipping inside the sequencer. You actually do not need to be anywhere near the maximum power output of your speakers in order to do this, either. Severe clipping looks like a DC signal to a speaker, which will cause heat buildup in the coil as the cones cannot move. That can fry the coil and in some cases components around the coil. Even putting out let's say 50 W of power to a 100 W speaker, you can still blow the tweeter by feeding it a sufficiently clipped signal. Just be careful. Try to avoid letting that master meter go red. Individual tracks don't matter if you're attenuating them at some later stage.

Thanks for the many good replies! Anybody can please explain following:

1- what do "impossible values" mean?

2- Regarding clipping and distortion, why doesn't it matter that individual tracks go in the red while it matters for the master?

3- What is meant with "Try to avoid letting that master meter go red. Individual tracks don't matter if you're attenuating them at some later stage".

4- Regarding blowing your speakers, can an individual track that clips hard continuously (like a loud kick that goes hard in the red each time) not damage your speakers like described above? Why only the master track?

Last edited by Dance123 on Apr-05-2009 at 19:03

Because Insert tracks arn't connected to your speakers, the Master is. And everything else has to go through the master. So all the insert tracks could be trillions of db above 0db, but if the master is peaking at -15 db..there is no issue because the speaker will only feel -15db

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quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir So Diginut What is the effect on the speakers when you load a synth or hit a button on it and your shit just goes to +100db or more, I usually quickly power off my speakers, I guess that can save damage yeah? This happens a few times a week so it is a concern

LMAO, than you have a pretty shitty latency if you press a key, and you still have the time to switch of your monitors(speakers)

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quote:

Originally posted by Raphie but then againn: every sum adds up in rouding off: channel > group > master. Theoretically you should just seelct all channels (except subgroups, FX and master) and pull them all down.

While I don't disagree with the point about pulling channels down to preserve headroom, the effect of rounding is almost negligible when using floating-point values to express audio signals, and will be the same regardless of where your meters are set at (rounding error in floating-point addition happens primarily when the summands are several orders of magnitude apart).

Lower the volume to leave headroom, but don't worry about the math.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Im not sure what you mean by attentuating individual channels at later stages though.

What I mean is, for example, having a VSTi output peak at +3 dB but feeding into a group channel with its fader at -4 dB. The net effect is no clipping.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir So Diginut What is the effect on the speakers when you load a synth or hit a button on it and your shit just goes to +100db or more, I usually quickly power off my speakers, I guess that can save damage yeah?

I'm not sure how you'd manage to make it go that high, although I have seen some crazy spikes with plugins like QuadraFuzz. Anyway, if it's totally brick-walling and your master volume is set relatively high, then that's definitely something you need to be careful of. But it usually takes several minutes of that kind of clipping to blow a speaker; a few seconds isn't likely to do any real damage.

quote:

Originally posted by Dance123 1- what do "impossible values" mean?

Digital signals are integers corresponding to the amplitude of an analog signal between 0 dB and some low value (I forget what the floor is). Sequencers use floating-point values internally and have no problem representing a sample that's +2 dB; however, this value is literally "off the scale" for a fixed-point PCM signal. There is simply no way to convert without losing information; most of the time, that happens by clipping, i.e. everything above 0 dB in the sequencer ends up at exactly 0 dB in your amp/receiver/monitor.

quote:

2- Regarding clipping and distortion, why doesn't it matter that individual tracks go in the red while it matters for the master? 3- What is meant with "Try to avoid letting that master meter go red. Individual tracks don't matter if you're attenuating them at some later stage".

I think I addressed these above. Let me know if you're still unclear...

quote:

4- Regarding blowing your speakers, can an individual track that clips hard continuously (like a loud kick that goes hard in the red each time) not damage your speakers like described above?

Being in the red does not actually mean that anything is clipping unless it happens on the master track. The master is where everything is getting converted from 32-bit float to 24-bit or 16-bit PCM, and any values above 0 dB will clip at 0 dB.

You would have to work pretty hard to get the sequencer to actually clip its floating-point values internally. I'm not even sure if that's possible, it might just overflow or spit back a NaN resulting in a crash or some other undefined behaviour. I can't say for sure, because I've never seen it happen.

An intermediate channel in your sequencer that's "hard in the red" is not actually clipping unless it's carried unattenuated to the master channel. On the other hand, using a distortion/overdrive plugin might result in a channel that is below 0 dB, but actually heavily clipped, and you very well could damage your speakers if you're playing it constantly at a loud enough volume. Same way you can blow speakers with an electric guitar and a weak amp; just drive the amp way beyond its limit, hold the note forever, and you stand a good chance at melting the coil.

It's funny actually, usually when people blow speakers they think that it was something they just did, cranked the volume too high or whatever, but most of the time it's actually very slow overheating of the coil caused by heavy clipping from an overdriven amp. You can drive a 150 W speaker with a 140 W sine wave no problem - that's what it was designed for - but give the same speaker a horribly clipped or DC signal at 50 W and you can easily destroy it.

In practice, being a little in the red isn't going to hurt anything except the sound quality. You'll get some clipping, but not that much. I'm only trying to warn people that pay no attention whatsoever to their master and might have an RMS value of +15 dB or something.

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