My thoughts:
I'm pretty sure after visiting clubs for many years I can't hear some frequencies any more.
In-ear headphones in combination with playing to loud also doesn't really help.

Also I doubt that cheese or commercial stuff for sure are less quality.
But that doesn't mean there is a lot crap among them, as there also is a lot crap which never got popular.

Some producers produced quality years ago and now according to many it's only cheese.

I'm having some mixed feelings. You can look at it from different points of view.

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This is an interesting idea i was thinking off as well (actually thinking of starting a thread!). I have doubts though on whether "taste improves" over the years or whether taste just "changes" over the years. The fact that you can appreciate the slight elements of a prog-house track (whilst it may be true to an extend), doesn't mean that you have acquired some form of hyper-musical-perception after the years of listening to this specific kind of music. It just means that because you mainly likely this specific type of music (e.g. prog-house) you have trained your auditory perception to distinquish between(and even appreciate more) all the different elements of that specific type of music (meaning that if you get exposed to a classical symphony or free jazz, and you are not as experienced in classical or jazz, you wouldn't be able to have the same "High auditory capability and aprreication" towards those specific types of music)



IMO, taste doesn't improves. It just changes. Whether it changes to the positive or negative is largely a matter of perspective or culture. People often talk of their taste becoming more "mature", although one canno't objectively justify what is "mature" and what is "not". "Maturity" in EDM can end-up meaning "hype" (e.g. minimal or techno)without necessarily meaning that those forms of music are less complicated than some less mature forms (e.g. psy-trance associated with the hippies and immaturity, in a matter of fact psy-trance is MUCH MORE complicated than a lot of modern techno, a fact that many people hate-including me lol).



In a matter of fact i sometimes think the opposite. That some people who inherently have "high musical perception" can listen to quite complicated stuff during their teenage years only to "dumben-down" their taste to less complicated forms as they grow-up (but ofcourse as you say, you can also get the opposite pattern e.g.from less complicated to more complicated). This statement can be related to scientific evidence which states that ALL human infants are born with perfect pitch, but the majority loses it as they grow-up. It seems that the environmental soundscapes constrains the neurological development of the auditory cortex (the brain region responsible for auditory perception) and since the "environmental soundscape" is a product of culture (and choice), some people would end-up being more sensitive (and possibly appreciate more)to some specific timbres and sounds in relation to others ,without necessarily those timbres and frequencies to be more complicated or more artistic in comparison to others.




There are also some animal studies with higher primates that justify that. Some baby-monkeys were exposed to some specific frequencies. After a period of exposure, implanted micro-electrodes recorded the electrical activity of some neurons of the auditory cortex during an auditiry discrimination task (in which monkeys should discriminate between different frequencies. A success would mean a banana). It was discovered that monkeys were more succesful in discriminating those frequencies that were exposed to when they were young (in comparison to those that were not), and that a larger area of the auditory cortex (brain) was dedicated to the perception of those frequencies (as evidenced by the degree of neuronal activations).



Summing-up we have (also CoR version!).


1) Growing-up doesn't necessarily mean that one will appreciate more complex or "artistic" forms of music. In a matter of fact it can be the other way round. As a result, musical maturity doesn't necessarily mean "improvement", just change.


2) Culture and choice (for multiple reasons) determine musical preferences and the subjective aesthetics of various genres



3) Specific preferences for specific genres can "train" the brain-mind to distinquish, magnify and analyse the structure of sounds of those specific musical genres. As a result, a magnification of perception and aesthetics for those specific sounds occurs.


4) Culture and choice determines the auditory soundscape and produces changes in human auditory perception through 3).



EDIT: As for your situation,for some reasons you ended-up liking some forms of EDM. Because of your extensive exposure to it, you ended-up perceiving its finer structure. As i said before, this fact doesn't necessarily correlate with your taste "improving" or "maturing". It just means that experience has "tuned" your brain to those specific genres of music. "Maturation" is a defferent more subjective entity governed by many factors including culture, personality, emotions and cognitions. It is not objective and doesn't "improve" your taste. It just governs your musical preferences (in that case-prog-house) and then the extended listening to prog-house has made-you "Better" at it. This process is IMO unrelated to the concept of "taste maturation". Don't forget. What you consider mature, can be "immature" to another person


Yeah that was my 3 cents

Last edited by PETRAN on Mar-30-2009 at 11:53

I think any change that occurs in what we are able to appreciate is NOT physical in the sense it doesn't have to do with the ability to discern new frequencies or anything like that. If anything i think at any particular moment our chemical state plays a role (just as an example, i'm pretty sure most of us appreciate austere extreme metal, minimal techno, abstract jazz, or any "difficult" music, or any music really, better if we go take a jog and a hot shower before listening to it). But most importantly i think the process on a longer time scale is psychological, a complex, ever-growing and changing web of experiences, habituation, associations, creating and understanding contexts, acquiring tastes, training motor functions and countless inexplicable mysteries of our lives as humans.

I don't think it's about physical sensory acuteness, but to do with acuteness of the spirit, or consciousness, the ability to resonate with the faintest levels of a multitude of subtle emotional variants (better known as 'feel the vibe')

i always quote inayat khan:

quote:

The word 'spiritual' does not apply to goodness, or to wonderworking, the power of producing miracles, or to great intellectual power. The whole of life in all its aspects is one single music. The real spiritual attainment is to tune one's self to the harmony of this perfect music. What is it that keeps man back from spiritual attainment? It is the denseness of this material existence, and the fact that he is unconscious of his spiritual being. His limitations prevent the free flow and movement which is the nature and character of life. Take for instance this denseness. There is a rock, and you want to produce sound from it, but it does not give any resonance; it does not answer your desire to produce sound. String or wire on the contrary will give an answer to the tone you want. You strike them and they answer. There are objects, which give resonance; you wish to produce sound in them, and they respond; they make your music complete. And so it is with human nature. One person is heavy and dull; you tell him something but he cannot understand; you speak to him, but he will not hear. He will not respond to music, to beauty, or to art. What is it? It is denseness. There is another person who is ready to appreciate and understand music and poetry, or beauty in any form, in character or in manner. Beauty is appreciated in every form by such a person; and it is this which is the awakening of the soul, which is the living condition of the heart. It is this which is the real spiritual attainment. Spiritual attainment is making the spirit alive, becoming conscious. When man is not conscious of soul and spirit, but only of his material being, he is dense; he is far removed from spirit.

So are the three of you (SMC, nefardec, PETRAN) saying you don't believe in hearing outright improving over time?

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I think it's also nesseseary to realise the possability that the brain activity level can improve. I've heard it's done studies on brain acitivty development on adults while reading (that you learn to recruit more/different parts of brain). It wouldn't say anything about taste getting better, but still probably a positive effect that could go for listening aswell.

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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated So are the three of you (SMC, nefardec, PETRAN) saying you don't believe in hearing outright improving over time?

It depends on if we're talking about hearing as what happens in the ear or as what happens in the brain.

quote:

Originally posted by SMC It depends on if we're talking about hearing as what happens in the ear or as what happens in the brain.

Most likely in the brain, but the result is the same anyway, isn't it? An increased sense of hearing.

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it has to be whats going on in the brain - surely actual hearing only degenerates from a certain age (or from listening to enough loud music)?

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quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Most likely in the brain, but the result is the same anyway, isn't it?

not really, there are an awful lot of other things that go on in the brain that affect 'hearing' as perception. i'll just throw gestalt out there as one example.

but in answer to your other question, i think the ear organ 'sense' of hearing only gets worse with age, while the mind 'perception' of music, consciousness grows and allows for more variety and profundity of emotional experience and understanding.


this presents a number of philosophical and spiritual ramifications, for example, the idea that life is a preparation for death, for the 'after life', the eternal life of the soul. this makes life somewhat of a training ground for the soul, and while we have ears to help us cope with the material world, as we get older and presumably wiser, we also learn how to listen inward, and to behold the soul/spirit essence of music.



but i also wanted to make the point that what you consider as being 'better hearing' may be an illusory or culturally-conditioned concept based on the way we 'ought to hear'.

human tendency is to store sound in memory, as a sort of survival instinct (roar of the sabre tooth tiger, flash of lighting, sound of your wife's voice, etc)

as we get older we accumulate stored sonic images in the mind, which we use to decode anything novel.

however, i think that is is an illusory method of perception - i think true listening is about innocence, freshness, awareness (but not certainty)



here's another metaphor for your OP, domesticated -

imagine as humans we are like the leaves of a tree. in our youth we are one color. when we are exposed to light, a certain frequency of light resonates within us and creates energy, which allows us to grow. as we get older, though, this process changes our chemical makeup, and we begin to change color. as we change color, we cease to absorb the same frequencies of light, and we resonate with different frequencies.

similarly, what resonates with us, 'tickles our fancy' if you will, changes like this.

so in regards to what you said about not hearing content in the first place, i think that may be the case, but it's not a physical change of the ear organ, but rather the internal resonance that changes and begins to absorb 'emotional waves' that were once reflected.

Last edited by nefardec on Mar-30-2009 at 23:31

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN 1) Growing-up doesn't necessarily mean that one will appreciate more complex or "artistic" forms of music. In a matter of fact it can be the other way round. As a result, musical maturity doesn't necessarily mean "improvement", just change. 2) Culture and choice (for multiple reasons) determine musical preferences and the subjective aesthetics of various genres 3) Specific preferences for specific genres can "train" the brain-mind to distinquish, magnify and analyse the structure of sounds of those specific musical genres. As a result, a magnification of perception and aesthetics for those specific sounds occurs. 4) Culture and choice determines the auditory soundscape and produces changes in human auditory perception through 3).

PETRAN, good post.

I disagree with your use of the word 'maturity', however. I think you can substitute maturity with your choice of word, 'change'. The difference is, that there might be a certain direction of change. Obviously there are cultural conditions in the way, but I'm sure you would agree that it's not the old people making scream-o and psy-trance... I think there is a such thing as maturity, and I think that it affects musical taste. However, I feel that in this contemporary society, there are a more immature people than ever, and that most people are perpetual toddlers (especially spiritually).

I think it's important to analyze the development of musicians rather than non-musicians here, because ordinary listeners may continue to listen to the same thing out of nostalgia, etc, (although artists' development -or should i say 'change' lol- might be affected by financial decisions, etc)

magnification of perception - nice thought. related to what salvador dali calls 'the paranoid critical method', i'm sure. I think this is pretty standard human behavior - everyone sees the world through colored lenses. (or magnifying lenses)

I'm reading a fantastic book right now by R Murray Schaefer called "Soundscapes: The Tuning Of The World", which discusses at length the soundscapes of various cultures and times, and their effect on the psyche.