quote:

George Tiller shooting suspect may be charged Monday BY JOE RODRIGUEZ, TIM POTTER AND STAN FINGER WICHITA - The 51-year-old man arrested in the shooting death of Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller -- a case that has drawn international attention -- could be charged Monday. Tiller, 67, was shot once just after 10 a.m. as he stood in the lobby of Reformation Lutheran Church, 7601 E. 13th, where he was a member of the congregation. Wichita police said that the suspect was arrested without incident on I-35 in Johnson County about three hours after the shooting following a statewide broadcast description of the suspect and the car he was driving. Although Wichita police declined to name the suspect, the Johnson County Sheriff's Office identified him as Scott P. Roeder, according to the Associated Press. Wichita police said it appeared the suspect acted alone and that they are investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups. Police said today that they expect the man to face a charge of murder and two counts of aggravated battery. In a news conference at Wichita City Hall, Deputy Chief Tom Stolz said police will "investigate this suspect to the Nth degree, his history, his family, his associates, and we're just in the beginning stages of that." Tiller had long been a focal point of protests by abortion opponents because his clinic, Women's Health Care Services, 5107 E. Kellogg, is one of three in the country where late-term abortions are performed. He was shot and wounded in both arms at his clinic in 1993. Today's shooting drew an outpouring of reaction from around the nation, including from President Obama. And it stoked emotional debate over the Internet between supporters of abortion rights and opponents of abortion. Without elaborating, Stolz said investigators will be looking into the Internet comments because the discussion could bear on public safety. Groups on both sides of the abortion issue spoke out. Randall Terry, founder of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, said in a statement that "George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God." National Organization for Women president Kim Gandy said: "The cold-blooded murder of Dr. George Tiller this morning in church is a stark reminder that women's bodies are still a battleground, and health care professionals are on the frontlines."

http://www.kansas.com/news/breaking/story/833730.html

Still no official confirmation about the motivations or allegiences of the gunman, but frankly I don't think there can be too much doubt about either. The gunman is doubtless a member of a church with strong ties to an anti-abortion group - or vice-versa - and was motivated to commit this act as a direct consequence of the vile propoganda war waged by such groups under the guise of the Christian faith. The gunman was inculcated with the church-sanctioned dogma that every act of abortion is an act of murder, and if one genuinely believes that - that Tiller and other abortion doctors are responsible for the murder of millions of children every year - then one can hardly say that the gunman's response was an over-reaction. In fact you'd have to believe - as many on right-wing blogs are asserting right now - that the justice meted out by the gunman was entirely proportional to the crimes committed by Tiller. If Tiller was in actual fact a murderer, then he got no less than what he deserved.

The statement issued by Operation Rescue on their website simply won't do:

quote:

"We are shocked at (Sunday) morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

For years they - and other groups that share the same mission - have used incendiary language to oppose the legal act of abortion, and this kind of extreme reaction is an inevitable consequence of such extreme rhetoric. If there is any lingering doubt about the dangers of religious indoctrination, unmoderated by reason or basic concern for living, breathing members of humanity, surely this act - and the many others like it - completely assuages it. The hysterical dogma of American churches on the issue of abortion is now responsible for the deaths of more people than it is responsible for saving.

mate, whenever you read/watch international news, do you just appreciate how fucking lucky we are to live in Oz?

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Gotta love religion. We had some Canadian abortion doctors shot by these radicals over the years, and actually one right here in Ancaster, Ontario - a few years back. Madness! Thats too close to home.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN mate, whenever you read/watch international news, do you just appreciate how fucking lucky we are to live in Oz?

In terms of freedom from religious lunacy and routine violence, yeah absolutely. I mean it's hard not to be concerned whenever George Pell flaps his jowls about or some kid gets beaten up by drunks in the CBD, but compared to the kind of nonsense that happens to people every day elsewhere around the world, I do think we're actually pretty sheltered from the worst excesses of human behaviour over here.

EDIT: Apart from the institutional xenophobia.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN mate, whenever you read/watch international news, do you just appreciate how fucking lucky we are to live in Oz?

and yet people from all over the world still risk their lives trying to get to the US. I'm not saying you don't have it good in australia (which i'm sure you do considering the wealth distribution is much less uneven than in the US and the population is relatively homogeneous and quantitatively small), but the US isn't nearly as dangerous as the news may have you believe. Very infrequently have i ever felt my life was in danger, even in some of the worst neighborhoods in america (e.g., south bronx; east new york; detroit; camden, nj; etc...). As unfortunate as this particular event was, 99.9% of the time all you need to do to avoid being a victim of crime is to exercise a little common sense. As for religious lunacy in the US, i don't deny it exists, but i wouldn't rank it nearly as high as the religious lunacy that takes place in other parts of the world. On the grand scale, it probably isn't even a really big issue in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 and yet people from all over the world still risk their lives trying to get to the US. I'm not saying you don't have it good in australia (which i'm sure you do considering the wealth distribution is much less uneven than in the US and the population is relatively homogeneous and quantitatively small), but the US isn't nearly as dangerous as the news may have you believe. Very infrequently have i ever felt my life was in danger, even in some of the worst neighborhoods in america (e.g., south bronx; east new york; detroit; camden, nj; etc...). As unfortunate as this particular event was, 99.9% of the time all you need to do to avoid being a victim of crime is to exercise a little common sense. As for religious lunacy in the US, i don't deny it exists, but i wouldn't rank it nearly as high as the religious lunacy that takes place in other parts of the world. On the grand scale, it probably isn't even a really big issue in the US.

Well, I wasn’t really talking about relative dangers so much as extremist religion that rears its ugly head now and again. The perpetual demonisation of abortion/abortion clinics/abortion doctors is but one example. True, it might not rate up there with saudi arabia or iran in terms of religious influence or radicalism, but as far as us "advanced" liberal democracies go, its pretty bad imo.

quote:

With states across the US passing regulations limiting access to abortion, does Roe v. Wade still matter?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Well, I wasn’t really talking about relative dangers so much as extremist religion that rears its ugly head now and again. The perpetual demonisation of abortion/abortion clinics/abortion doctors is but one example. True, it might not rate up there with saudi arabia or iran in terms of religious influence or radicalism, but as far as us "advanced" liberal democracies go, its pretty bad imo.

fair enough, but it's really not as bad as the media may have you believe.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/

Generally, roe v wade is only relevant in republican states. If roe was overturned, states like NY, NJ, Cali, and Illinois would still allow abortions. This really is a non-issue.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 Generally, roe v wade is only relevant in republican states. If roe was overturned, states like NY, NJ, Cali, and Illinois would still allow abortions. This really is a non-issue.

Actually, what that documentary shows is that roe v. wade has been made (more or less) irrelevant by (what I consider to be) restrictive state regulation throughout the south. I don’t think that's a "non issue" at all, nor is the fact that some states might ban abortion should roe v. wade be overturned.

That story is about the LAST abortion clinic in an entire state (forget which one) . That isn't a "non issue" either.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Actually, what that documentary shows is that roe v. wade has been made (more or less) irrelevant by (what I consider to be) restrictive state regulation throughout the south. I don’t think that's a "non issue" at all, nor is the fact that some states might ban abortion should roe v. wade be overturned. That story is about the LAST abortion clinic in an entire state (forget which one) . That isn't a "non issue" either.

I don't agree. If indiana bans abortions a pregnant person could go to illinios. Sure, that would create additional costs, but it would be worth the expense if an abortion is really what that person wants. I get that you think it is an issue because of free access to abortions, but since i live in a state in which abortion will never be illegal, to me it's a non-issue. UNLESS, congressional republicans could somehow miraculously squeez through a law making it illegal to cross state borders to get an abortion (i doubt that could ever happen). I would be very concerned if that happened.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 I don't agree. If indiana bans abortions a pregnant person could go to illinios. Sure, that would create additional costs, but it would be worth the expense if an abortion is really what that person wants. I get that you think it is an issue because of free access to abortions, but since i live in a state in which abortion will never be illegal, to me it's a non-issue. UNLESS, congressional republicans could somehow miraculously squeez through a law making it illegal to cross state borders to get an abortion (i doubt that could ever happen). I would be very concerned if that happened.

I don’t think forcing people to travel interstate is an acceptable work-around for archaic and religiously-inspired policy.

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Hate crime, anyone?

And if the ALF can be considered a terrorist organization, so should the Christian church.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Hate crime, anyone? And if the ALF can be considered a terrorist organization, so should the Christian church.

Yeah, never mind the hate crime - this can and should be prosecuted as an act of terrorism. As someone on another forum said, imagine that a Muslim with ties to radical religious groups had walked into a church and shot someone: the authorities would presently be throwing people up against the wall left, right and centre.

The facts in this case are just as damning. The gunman had advocated violence against abortion providers to the people he knew:

quote:

Those who know Roeder said he believed that killing abortion doctors was an act of justifiable homicide. "I know that he believed in justifiable homicide," said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City anti-abortion activist who made headlines in 1995 when she was ordered by a federal judge to stop using a bullhorn within 500 feet of any abortion clinic. "I know he very strongly believed that abortion was murder and that you ought to defend the little ones, both born and unborn."

He had subscribed to an organisation that openly advocated violence against abortion providers:

quote:

Roeder also was a subscriber to Prayer and Action News, a magazine that advocated the justifiable homicide position, said publisher Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines, Iowa. "I met him once, and he wrote to me a few times," Leach said. "I remember that he was sympathetic to our cause, but I don't remember any details."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/69151.html

And he also has a record of violent intentions towards abortion providers on a plethora of websites (in this case, from the now removed "chargetiller.com" website):



It would be easy to write this off as the actions of a single lunatic, but there is a track record for this kind of behaviour in the United States, and there can be no doubt about where its origin lies:

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For those who would like to think today's murder in church of Dr. George Tiller, an abortion provider, is an isolated incident, here's the horrifying news: You are wrong. The pattern is clear and frightening. In March 1993, three months into the administration of our first pro-choice president, Bill Clinton, abortion provider Dr. David Gunn was murdered in Pensacola, Florida. That was the beginning of what would become a five-fold increase in violence against abortion providers throughout the Clinton years. Today's assassination of Dr. George Tiller comes 5 months into the term of our second pro-choice president. For anyone who would like to believe that this is a statistical anomaly, a coincidence that doesn't portend anything, again, you are wrong. During the entire Bush administration, from 2000-2008 there were no murders. During the Clinton era, between 1994-2000 there were 6 abortion providers and clinic staff murdered, and 17 attempted murders of abortion providers. There were 12 bombings or arsons during the Clinton years. During the Bush administration, not only were there no murders, there were no attempted murders. There was one clinic bombing during the Bush years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/crist...a_b_209562.html

The fact is that there is a contingency of individuals (a fringe contigency, perhaps, but still of a concerning size) who openly welcome and encourage such violence against abortion providers. Taken from a single FreeRepublic thread yesterday, for instance:

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Ginger, don't ask God to have mercy on this man. His soul belongs in Hell. retire05 | 05.31.09 - 12:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The killer emulated the victim. May God have mercy on both their souls. C.L. | 05.31.09 - 12:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where he's going, he won't ever meet up with the hundreds of people HE killed for profit. The Lord works in mysterious ways.... Dell | 05.31.09 - 12:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, but it's a little hard to work up a lot of sympathy for him. Maybe a few more babies will see the light of day now. Solaratov | 05.31.09 - 12:31 pm | # All murder is, by definition, a late term abortion. Is the reciprocal definition not as likely? Joan of Argghh! | Homepage | 05.31.09 - 12:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PAYBACK IS A BITCH. Sharp Elbows | Homepage | 05.31.09 - 12:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vigilantes, unite! It IS difficult to work up too much sympathy for a man such as this. I won't bother, especially when I consider all of the innocent lives he ripped from the womb. God will judge this man. Lee | 05.31.09 - 12:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DHS will say see Right Wing Extremist caused this killing. The libs will have their collective panties in a knot. The MSM will be all over this like flies to shit. I have no sympathy, this is just a late term abortion, very late term. Jayne | 05.31.09 - 12:45 pm | #

Collectively, these people are building a culture - fostered by the churches and associated groups - where those providing a legal service are being tarnished as perpetrators of an intolerable evil. The rhetoric is steeped in a degree of hatred so fervent, and so divorced from any potential for rational discourse that such acts of extreme, unmoderated hatred are simply inevitable. In light of Roeder's history of violent sentiments against Tiller and the history of violence against abortion providers in the US more generally, anyone found making casually violent threats against abortion clinics on a public forum should be investigated with the same tenacity that any Islamic radical found making similar threats against American citizens should be investigated. Any organisation found to be fostering such a sentiment should have their offices raided, their organisation shut-down and those responsible for its adminstration placed in front of a court. We don't tolerate such blatantly fanatical discourse in any other facet of political debate, so there is no reason why the views of these fringe pro-life groups (or the churches that fund them) should be allowed to proliferate unmoderated any longer.