It seems that there are two sides of the EDM perspective, when it comes to demographic.

On the extreme left we have those who enjoy electronic music at complete face value, without any influence from who tells them what to like, or thinking that the music needs to be anything than it already is and what it has been for a long time. Innovation is of no concern to this group. If they like a song, they like it, and that is that. They are much easier to please. They don't have to dig far, and generally like things that are liked by a mass majority of people. They like "accessible" music.

On the extreme right we have those who are always on the search for something different. Innovation, or at least hearing something different, is of utmost importance to this group. Cliches and easily-accessible hooks are devil to these people, with the random rare exception. This group is great for being motivated, and "digging deeper"... never wanting anything to go stale.

There are wonderful qualities from both of these groups. Group A enjoys music for what it is, and how much they actually enjoy it... not based on what they have learned over time that they should like (but are often closed-minded to things outside of what they are familiar with). Group B makes things happen, moves things in new directions, and is very open minded to NEW things (but rarely are open minded to old things, unless they have been out of the spotlight or forgotten about for a while).

In this "scene", many people seem to gradually progress from Group A to Group B. You get into the "scene" or into the music by what you were interested in when you were a "Group A'er". Over time, the more you learn about what is out there, you dig and dig and eventually find yourself in Group B... largely due, in many cases, to outside influence of "veterans", in combination with becoming tired of the same cliche'ed sounds (such as is often the case with trance, being that it has become rather stale over the past few years.)

This type of progression is as much of a blessing as it is a curse... especially for those who begin to DJ or produce. The search for something new, something standout, something non-cliche... becomes an obsession. You eventually become jaded to sounds/tracks/artists you would have liked originally if you hadn't decided to start digging so hard to find something that had never been done before.

Do any of you find yourselves not giving tracks a chance because, dammit, they just are too easily enjoyed?

Why is it so hard to sit in the middle? Why can't more people play sets like Danny Howells? (70's funk, house, trance, and hip-hop in the same set without sounding like a douchebag? Sure, I'll hook you right up!)

Personally, I want to start getting away from both producing and mixing sets that are supposed to be pleasing to group B (or group A, for that matter) and just start producing and mixing good fucking music. I want to be innovative without being snooty. I want to be innovative without sacrificing pure enjoyment. Just because I've heard a sound or style before doesn't mean that I can't play or make it. When did it become such a bad thing for us to enjoy something that we've enjoyed before?

I'm not saying that nobody ever "grows out" or "moves on" from a particular type of sound... but I question how many seemingly confident people really don't play from their heart and soul, and just try to be unique for the sake of it only. I also wonder if I'm shooting myself in the foot (as far as success in the "scene" goes) by having such a "good music is just good music" approach.

I refer to these two groups as "trancecrackers" and "hipsters" in the subject line more as a humorous thing than what I think these people actually are (I think those two terms are more limiting/specific than what I'm talking about). Not everybody in group A masturbates to A State of Trance, and not everybody in group B is only happy wearing a scarf and listening to the same plain drum beat for 3 hours.

Anyway, this rant is quite disorganized, so hopefully some of you can follow it. I tried to write it while I'm working, so sorry if it isn't cohesive.

I don't think that "jadedness" and cynicism are purely a result of experience as much as they are the result of associating yourself with a very talkative, strongly opinionated group of listeners like this one. If most people went back solely to searching for music (by just browsing Discogs listings and download sites, say) rather than spending hours encountering it through the lens of other people's opinions, there would be less of this division you are writing about -- to the extent that the division really exists outside of message boards and music blogs.

My experience of music discussion outside the environment of boards and blogs is that it is generally much less ideologically charged than what you see online, and the extent of a negative evaluation of a track might range from just a visible lack of enthusiasm to a firm "I don't really like it." Bit of a far cry from the lecture you often get on TA or Discogs boards, hehe. Of course I have had days where I was one of the ones giving people lectures about why their music sucks. But it does get tiresome.

Last edited by MrJiveBoJingles on Sep-18-2009 at 19:06

I knew you'd be the first to reply...this is a very JBJ thread.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I don't think that "jadedness" and cynicism are purely a result of experience as much as they are the result of associating yourself with a very talkative, strongly opinionated group of listeners like this one. If most people went back solely to searching for music (by just browsing Discogs listings and download sites, say) rather than spending hours encountering it through the lens of other people's opinions, there would be less of this division you are writing about -- to the extent that the division really exists outside of message boards and music blogs.

I totally agree. I find myself getting wrapped up in viewing music through the "lens" of others, as you put it. I start judging my tracks and sets based on what a particular group of people would think of it. I'm starting to realize that this is at least as bad as (or, dare I say, identical to) what Group A fights against.

In "real life", I rarely experience the kind of cynicism that I experience, say, on TranceAddict. On here, you mostly hear things like "this song sucks because it has a supersaw lead and that has been way overdone" or "this song sucks, sounds like something Markus Schulz would play". I think I need to stop heading in this direction before I stop appreciating a track that can stand on its own merits. I mean, good lord, how many songs use an electric guitar and are still considered innovative, fresh, classy, or insert other adjective here?

I find myself a bit torn, because this type of critical/cynical listening has opened my ears and mind up to music that I would have never given much of a chance before.

Back when I was a trancecracker, I wouldn't have ever given artists like Damien Lazarus, Audion, or Jay Haze a chance... and I'm glad to have experienced music by these artists. I guess I just want to make sure that I don't pigeonhole myself into music that I find "intelligent" or "innovative" for the sake of it, and rather, enjoy music for being enjoyable music.

Yep. I think that the environment of message boards encourages people to set themselves up along battle lines, and to see others as being on either one side or another. It also encourages them to construct stories about their own musical journey so that they can have a nice image to project to their musical compatriots, and to use these stories as a didactic device whenever they happen to collide with some woefully ignorant newbie.

I have found it refreshing sometimes to avoid MD for a while and just post in the Production and Producer Promo forums. People there seem a lot less aggressive and evangelistic about musical taste -- granted, it is partially because a higher proportion of them are still young "trancers" -- but lately some of the cynicism has been leaking into there as well it seems. Another option is to avoid the boards altogether and just go a-browsing through Discogs and Beatport, encountering the music without having the experience tinted by someone else either recommending or bashing each track.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Yep. I think that the environment of message boards encourages people to set themselves up along battle lines, and to see others as being on either one side or another. It also encourages them to construct stories about their own musical journey so that they can have a nice image to project to their musical compatriots, and to use these stories as a didactic device whenever they happen to collide with some woefully ignorant newbie. I have found it refreshing sometimes to avoid MD for a while and just post in the Production and Producer Promo forums. People there seem a lot less aggressive and evangelistic about musical taste -- granted, it is partially because a higher proportion of them are still young "trancers" -- but lately some of the cynicism has been leaking into there as well it seems.

To be fair, it's not all bad. Cynicism that occurs because of something that is tired or stale isn't so bad, it's when the cynicism makes you shun songs that you actually like, or would've liked, had you not viewed it through that lens of mandatory innovation. (For example, not liking ASOT because of all the samey, over-compressed, poppy vocal tracks is one thing... but not listening to a completely amazing track that happens to fall under the category of trance isn't really fair. You're criticizing for the sake of doing it, at that point.)

Guess you missed my edit. I added that sometimes I like to just get away from the boards altogether and go browsing through Discogs and Beatport, no critical context or anything, and try out a bunch of artists and labels that I have never seen mentioned on boards or blogs and that I have never even heard of before. And if I find anything nice, I just keep any cool new discoveries to myself. No discussion or critique, simply listening.



Very refreshing IMO.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Guess you missed my edit. I added that sometimes I like to just get away from the boards altogether and go browsing through Discogs and Beatport, no critical context or anything, and try out a bunch of artists and labels that I have never seen mentioned on boards or blogs and that I have never even heard of before. And if I find anything nice, I just keep any cool new discoveries to myself. No discussion or critique, simply listening. Very refreshing IMO.

Yeah, I might have to give that a shot, sometime. It will be hard, because a lot of my new music discovery I do right here on these boards, and I have no harsh feelings towards that aspect.

I'm in Group C ... Someone who was in Group A, evolved to supposedly better music in Group B, and then realized Group B's music is actually a bunch of crap disguised as good music and went back to Group A. But then remembered why I left Group A to begin with, so Group C is a "looking for something good regardless of what group its supposed to be in" type group.

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the music has become stale, time for something new!

This thread reminds me a lot of this old one:

can you return to the "plur" after you've become jaded?

I think there need to be more groups, or am I just to old?

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Longest (classic) Trance playlist on YouTube (5000 tracks released up to and including 1997), click here

I'm pretty much in the middle, maybe leaning towards A a little bit.

and btw, PLUR!