First of all - Hi to all of you ! I just landed here...
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I've been making some trance for a good while but some things still make me confused. I would already finish tens of tracks, but I always get stuck with the theory.

So, in music, there are scales.
I'm currently in making a track in F minor.
Thus F, G, G#, A#, C, D and E are my notes.
Everything goes fine until I get to the chords...

So my questions are :

1. Can I use chords containing other notes than those from the F min scale ?
2. Can I use other chords with different root key like A min etc, after using a F min chord ?
3. If 2=yes, do trance tracks tend to change scale ?
4. When I'm repeating a chord sequence, on what depends the note of my bassline going at the same time (I'm playing the Fmin chord - F, A# and C) so where should my bassline be going (which key ?)
5. Can I go from a chord to any other ? If not, what depends it on ?
6. What are the functions of tonic, dominant etc ?
7. What do roman letters really represent in chords ?
8. I use this site for finding my chords and scales, but it's written there 'Note this formula is in key of C enharmonics.' What does it mean ?

I know that there is a lot of it, but I think if we anwser all the questions above it would help a lot of people. There was also a different thread I found regarding chords and stuff, but I didn't find answers to the most of my questions.

And please respect this thread, post only if you know the answer or you just have another interesting question or sugestion, but again - please stick to the topic. Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by randomforumuser So, in music, there are scales. I'm currently in making a track in F minor. Thus F, G, G#, A#, C, D and E are my notes.

Actually Fmin has 4 flats and no sharps, so F G Ab Bb C Db Eb are actually your notes (for natural minor - you used the ascending melodic version). While that may sound a bit pedantic, it will greatly benefit you down the road to understand why - google the circle of fifths if you're not already familiar with it. It will definitely help you to gain a more complete understanding of keys and apply it to your music and your questions below.

I'll answer some of these briefly, but you've essentially asked a semester's worth of intro to music theory questions.

quote:

1. Can I use chords containing other notes than those from the F min scale ?

Yes. There are no rules, other than, if it sounds good, it is good. Most people are accustomed to hearing chords within the same, or a closely related, key/scale, though, so if you venture outside of those scales too far or use progressions that people aren't accustomed to hearing, it may sound "wrong" or bad to some people.

quote:

2. Can I use other chords with different root key like A min etc, after using a F min chord ?

Yes. There are no rules, other than, if it sounds good, it is good.

quote:

3. If 2=yes, do trance tracks tend to change scale ?

Not very often, but sometimes. There was a recent thread here discussing key changes in EDM - look for it on the first few pages.

quote:

4. When I'm repeating a chord sequence, on what depends the note of my bassline going at the same time (I'm playing the Fmin chord - F, A# and C) so where should my bassline be going (which key ?)

Fmin = F Ab C (not F A# C)

Usually, your bass will be playing the root (F), third (Ab), or fifth (C). But, there are many other options and your bass does not have to remain static on one key. This is far to broad a question to be answered here, so I suggest studying up on counterpoint.

quote:

5. Can I go from a chord to any other ? If not, what depends it on ?

Yes. There are no rules, other than, if it sounds good, it is good.

That said, there are some progressions that work better than others in many cases. The tonic can go anywhere, Vs, IVs, and VIIs resolve nicely to the tonic. Up in 2nds, down in 3rds, down in 5ths (same as up in 4ths) all work well and are common as well.

quote:

6. What are the functions of tonic, dominant etc ?

Tonic = root; where your song wants to resolve (usually the chord that your song starts and ends with)

Dominant = the V (or vii-dim) chord; usually extended by a 7th (i.e., V7 or vii7) and often used to resolve back to the tonic.

quote:

7. What do roman letters really represent in chords ?

They represent the chords built on each note of the scale. Capital letters represent major and augmented chords, uncapitalized letters represent minor or diminished chords. Here are the primary chords and names in major/minor:

I/i = tonic
ii/ii-dim = supertonic
iii/III = mediant (i.e., median to the dominant)
IV/iv = subdominant (i.e., one 5th below the tonic)
V/v = dominant (i.e., one 5th above the tonic)
vi/VI = submediant (i.e., median to the subdominant)
vii-dim/VII - leading tone in major keys/subtonic in minor keys

quote:

8. I use this site for finding my chords and scales, but it's written there 'Note this formula is in key of C enharmonics.' What does it mean ?

It means that the author of that website needs to read the first paragraph that I wrote above.

Enharmonic essentially means two notes that are played the same (e.g., on a piano), but are spelled differently. For example A# and Bb. Study the circle of fifths and become familiar with it and this will all make sense.

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Last edited by cryophonik on Mar-21-2011 at 01:16

@cryophonik
Thanks a lot man... I will deffo go to study those fiths circle thing.

One more thing.. How or where do I find those I/i,ii/ii-dim,iii/III,IV/iv,V/v,vi/VI,vii-dim/VII chords for a specific key ?
I mean.. If I build a chord on F, then it means that it's the I chord ?

So your main advice is to just trust ears and to go for the best/most suiting sound ? Thats very good...

Last edited by randomforumuser on Mar-21-2011 at 01:39

quote:

Originally posted by randomforumuser One more thing.. How or where do I find those I/i,ii/ii-dim,iii/III,IV/iv,V/v,vi/VI,vii-dim/VII chords for a specific key ?.

Once you have a good understanding of your key and the notes in that scale, it's just a matter of building triads off each notes. Take C-major for simplicity. The notes of the scale are:

1 - C
2 - D
3 - E
4 - F
5 - G
6 - A
7 - B

Now, just build a triad off each note using notes that are 3 and 5 notes above it (don't worry about major/minor - the chords will be what they are):

I - C E G (or 1 3 5) = Cmaj
ii - D F A (or 2 4 6) = Dmin
iii - E G B (or 3 5 7) = Emin
IV - F A C (or 4 6 1 [8]) = Fmaj
V - G B D (or 5 7 2) = Gmaj
vi - A C E (or 6 1 3) = Amin
vii-dim - B D F (or 7 2 4) = Bdim

Doing the same thing for Cmin (natural/pure), scale notes are:

1 - C
2 - D
3 - Eb
4 - F
5 - G
6 - Ab
7 - Bb

And the chords are:

i - C Eb G (or 1 3 5) = Cmin
ii-dim - D F Ab (or 2 4 6) = Ddim
III - Eb G Bb (or 3 5 7) = Ebmaj
iv - F Ab C (or 4 6 1 [8]) = Fmin
v - G Bb D (or 5 7 2) = Gmin (often used as a major dominant chord [Gmaj - G B D]in melodic or harmonic minor version)
VI - Ab C Eb (or 6 1 3) = Abmaj
VII - Bb D F (or 7 2 4) = Bbmaj

Once you get this down, you can apply it to other keys/scales, learn to add extensions, etc.

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Last edited by cryophonik on Mar-21-2011 at 03:37

That's it !
I've been looking for it for long time, dunno why but I could manage to find anything but this. Thanks a lot again...
Going offtopic..
Once when I get my project finished, I can send it to you.
Are you even fan of energetic nonvocal trance ? Cause I saw ur site and ur more into other stuff I guess.. Cheers.

No problem - glad I could help.

quote:

Originally posted by randomforumuser Once when I get my project finished, I can send it to you. Are you even fan of energetic nonvocal trance ? Cause I saw ur site and ur more into other stuff I guess.. Cheers.

Nonvocal trance? Never heard of it.

Yeah, you can definitely send it to me, but to be honest, you'll probably get much better feedback by posting it on the Producers Promotion forum because, as you've noticed, I'm more of a jack-of-all\-trades/master-of-none when it comes to EDM.

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Doing the same thing for Cmin (natural/pure), scale notes are: 1 - C 2 - D 3 - Eb 4 - F 5 - G 6 - Ab 7 - Bb And the chords are: i - C Eb G (or 1 3 5) = Cmin ii-dim - D F Ab (or 2 4 6) = Ddim III - Eb G Bb (or 3 5 7) = Ebmaj IV - F Ab C (or 4 6 1 [8]) = Fmin v - G Bb D (or 5 7 2) = Gmin (often used as a major dominant chord [Gmaj - G B D]in melodic or harmonic minor version) VI - Ab C Eb (or 6 1 3) = Abmaj VII - Bb D F (or 7 2 4) = Bbmaj

I think it's the F minor not C minor,
And wouldn't then F be as the 1 so the notes would go :

1 - F
2 - G
3 - Ab
4 - Bb
5 - C
6 - Eb
7 - E

Correct me if I'm wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by randomforumuser I think it's the F minor not C minor, And wouldn't then F be as the 1 so the notes would go : 1 - F 2 - G 3 - Ab 4 - Bb 5 - C 6 - Eb 7 - E Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well it depends on the version of Fmin that you are using. There are three flavors of minor: natural (pure), harmonic, and melodic:

Natural (Pure):

1 - F
2 - G
3 - Ab
4 - Bb
5 - C
6 - Db
7 - Eb

Harmonic:

1 - F
2 - G
3 - Ab
4 - Bb
5 - C
6 - Db
7 - E

Melodic (differs for ascending and descending scales, where descending is the same as natural minor):

1 - F
2 - G
3 - Ab
4 - Bb
5 - C
6 - D
7 - E
8 - F
7 - Eb
6 - Db
5 - C
4 - Bb
3 - Ab
2 - G
1 - F

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quote:

Originally posted by randomforumuser 1 - F 2 - G 3 - Ab 4 - Bb 5 - C 6 - Eb 7 - E

One other thing I'll add is that it's common to use all seven alphabetical note names, rather than repeating some and leaving out others as you did above (two versions of "E", no version of "D"). This make it less confusing when naming chords by having one chord per note name, and makes it much easier to figure out the intervals. So, whenever you write down (physically or mentally) the notes in a scale, write down all the notes, then add flats and sharps as necessary (see the circle of fifths), as in this example for Fmin, which has 4 flats:

Step 1: write down each of the seven notes without repeating or omitting any, starting with the tonic note of the key that you are working in:

F G A B C D E

Step 2: add the accidentals from the key signature/circle of fifths (4 flats in this case):

F G Ab Bb C Db Eb

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Yep, it's less confusing too.
Regarding the scales... I just noticed that I've been using the Fmin melodic scale. The first, ascending one. Does it mean I shouldn't write descending melodies in that first version of melodic Fmin scale ?
And does it mean it's intended only for ascending or descending melodies or what ? :P Or should I use other version then, but then I lose G, which is working really nice with F, Bb and C.

lol
If it sounds good, it is good.

edit: That was funny to me, Cryo said that like 4 times!

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quote:

Originally posted by randomforumuser Yep, it's less confusing too. Regarding the scales... I just noticed that I've been using the Fmin melodic scale. The first, ascending one. Does it mean I shouldn't write descending melodies in that first version of melodic Fmin scale ? And does it mean it's intended only for ascending or descending melodies or what ? :P Or should I use other version then, but then I lose G, which is working really nice with F, Bb and C.

The three versions of the minor scale are used interchangeably, even within songs, all the time. I think you'll find that many/most trance tracks are written entirely in natural minor, with the occasional major dominant chord (in your case [key of Fmin] the Cmaj chord with the E-natural used from the melodic or harmonic version) thrown in to strengthen a progression and add some tension/resolution, but that doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't make good use of more chords from the various minor keys in your progressions. Really it all comes down to:

quote:

Originally posted by atxbigballer1 lol If it sounds good, it is good. edit: That was funny to me, Cryo said that like 4 times!

That can't be overstated. A lot of people get so wrapped up in thinking of music theory as being "rules" that they forget that there is only one true rule:

If it sounds good, it is good.

(and its relative minor: if it sounds bad, it is bad )

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