and what format would that be? can wav be more than two channels? i wouldnt produce it as i think surround is bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by sterilis Hi Guys, I'm doing my dessertation for university on surround sound in the nightclubs. I've asked DJs would they play surround sound tracks. Another question I need answered is if there was a demand for surround sound tracks would you produce them? Thanks in advance Barry

I guy I know graduated on a similar project and actually made dance music in a surround setup a few years ago. It's fun and was quite amazing actually, I was well impressed.

Apart from the technical limitations (current dj-gear has no support for surround whatsoever) I can't really see the need for this apart from some very specific cases. In a club-setting it might actually decrease the overall clubbing experience having to many sounds being thrown at you from another part of the room.

If there was an obvious demand for surround mixed music I'd surely do so. It is quite a bit harder than plain stereo mixing though. Personally, I would prefer not to to be honest.

___________________

Storyteller Website | Storyteller @ Facebook | Storyteller @ Beatport | Storyteller @ Soundcloud | Stephen J. Kroos - Europa (Storyteller Remix)
Anthony Mea - Get It On (Storyteller Remix)

quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

its entirely upto the producer or label for that matter if surround sound was to be introduced to the DJing world.

i think wav has to be converted to surround sound.

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Official Site - www.sterilis.co.uk

Surround sound is 6 channels if we're talking about 5.1, normal music has only 2 channels (left+right).

Normal CD's are only mono or stereo, a cdj only has stereo output, so has the dj-mixer and sound installation in just about any club. That's four channels short in each step of the audio chain in a club. So no it is not up to the producer or label only.

Wav can not just be converted to surround sound, if you would do so it would not be surround at all. Just plain stereo spread over 6 channels instead of 2 - and no difference in the experience whatsoever! You would need to do a seperate mixdown for that or some intense post processing to truely make it surround.

Honestly if this is your dessertation you might want to read up on things.

___________________

Storyteller Website | Storyteller @ Facebook | Storyteller @ Beatport | Storyteller @ Soundcloud | Stephen J. Kroos - Europa (Storyteller Remix)
Anthony Mea - Get It On (Storyteller Remix)

quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

while surround sux it would be an interesting attempt to have an 8 channel format, 8 similar speakers in each corner of the room (3d), prefarably a likesideroom like 5x5x5m3 room, so that you could adjust panning L,R + Back,Forth, + Up/Down. Or just call it XYZ 0-100% on the mixer. if all is 50% you have the sound in the middle. only way to get "true" surround imo. it would be FUCKING HELL to mix though.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Surround sound is 6 channels if we're talking about 5.1, normal music has only 2 channels (left+right). Normal CD's are only mono or stereo, a cdj only has stereo output, so has the dj-mixer and sound installation in just about any club. That's four channels short in each step of the audio chain in a club. So no it is not up to the producer or label only. Wav can not just be converted to surround sound, if you would do so it would not be surround at all. Just plain stereo spread over 6 channels instead of 2 - and no difference in the experience whatsoever! You would need to do a seperate mixdown for that or some intense post processing to truely make it surround. Honestly if this is your dessertation you might want to read up on things.

yes i do know the whole process of mixing down in surround sound. if it was as simple as converting stereo to surround sound it would defeat the whole purpose of producing in surround sound. i was merely telling him that the output of the surround sound can be in a wav file.

___________________
Official Site - www.sterilis.co.uk

quote:

Originally posted by sterilis yes i do know the whole process of mixing down in surround sound. if it was as simple as converting stereo to surround sound it would defeat the whole purpose of producing in surround sound. i was merely telling him that the output of the surround sound can be in a wav file.

Well sorry then. This would be an occassion where quoting comes in handy .

___________________

Storyteller Website | Storyteller @ Facebook | Storyteller @ Beatport | Storyteller @ Soundcloud | Stephen J. Kroos - Europa (Storyteller Remix)
Anthony Mea - Get It On (Storyteller Remix)

quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

quote:

Originally posted by sterilis i was merely telling him that the output of the surround sound can be in a wav file.

seriously? can you have 6channels in a wav?


WHERES RANN WHEN WE NEED HIM?

I'll bite.

At the studio 95 of the work is surround. Storyteller is absolutely right, but I could have sworn I already wrote some long thing about this back in march in this thread (the origins of surround, why it would/wouldn't work in clubs, encoding/decoding etc).

Long story short, the singla path is not theoretically, yes it could be done but it doesn't really work as we don't listen to music (nor is it performed in 3d). it would be fine for some kind of experiential thing (for instance I was assistant engineer on Universal's Simpsons Ride which is 7.1) and even done projects which have been 12.1 (don't ask), but for music without visuals or an environmental anchor (like film or simulators) it simply doesn't translate as well - When we hear music, it comes form in front of us, not from behind or to the sides, and that's what we're used to so that's what we like.

Ministry of sound in London used to be my clients and actually have the technical capability in terms of zoning and speaker arrays to run at least a cut down surround, if not full 5 or 7.1, but DJ music is simply not set up for it.

Quadraphonic sound could quite easily be set up in most clubs with just a small amount of extra equipment and could even use normal DJ mixer if it had enough channels, but hardly anyone has used that format in years.

Surround in clubs is certainly possible with existing speakers but everything from the music upwards would have to be created in surround, the DJ mixer would have to be 5.1 (per track) so that's 12 channels to mic two tracks if you wanted complete control over each discrete channel. Would would at least need a direction mixer in the form of a joystick to pan each full track even if you didn't have individual level controls, but then you'd need a bass opt in/out for that too IMO.

Finally, yes, surround can be in wav - it would just be 6 channels of wav, and by that I mean just single channel mono wavs, not a PCM/stereo interleaved wav like CD's are encoded to ( just a variation of wavs in essence).

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN - When we hear music, it comes form in front of us, not from behind or to the sides, and that's what we're used to so that's what we like.

I dont know where your ears are located on your head man but mine open to the sides...

That being said,
when we hear music the sound waves travel medialy on the coronal plane through the inner workings of your ear to your brain.


that is all

quote:

Originally posted by Von Pistol I dont know where your ears are located on your head man but mine open to the sides... That being said, when we hear music the sound waves travel medialy on the coronal plane through the inner workings of your ear to your brain. that is all

Gee, thank you for that stunning insight

I don't know about you but every human I've ever met has their pinna's facing forward, not symettrical dishes on the side of their head.

Every single part of the ear is designed specifically to enhance optimum hearing, with a bias to those sounds roughly in our 180 degree forward field, which diminshes the further back you go from that. Of course we can hear thing behind us, but do you really think it's a design oversight that every surround system ever made does not have a center speaker directly behind the listening position, even though the forward center speaker in a surround setup carries nearly all dialogue and a large portion of the music?

We rely on two main things to facilitate directional perception; Inter-Aural arrival time differences and Inter-Aural Volume differences, and every part of our ear, including every fold, bend curve and ever the material it's made from is specific to this function. Shit, even the material our head is made from and it's shape come in to play to help us perceive sound correctly.

So do you think it's a co-incidence that such an incredibly designed system, formed over millions of years worth of selection/survival, has a bias to forward facing sounds?

What I'm getting at is, yes, we can hear sounds all around us but our aural perception has a clear bias to things in the forward field in terms of sources.

There's also a nurture thing going on - when we hear bands or live pa's, our own hifi systems or even spoken word, the majority of the sound comes to us from in front, and that is what we're used to in terms of listening, hence my earlier statement.

Anyway, back to the subject of surround in clubs, there is one final problem with retrofitting or trying make surround work in clubs: Most surround capabale environments were built that way (cinemeas, screening rooms, simulators/rides etc) to accomodate muslti direction sound sources and the bigest issue; bass frequencies in relation to the rest of the spectrum. Clubs are simply not designed that way in the first place (to allow a accurate surround perception based on specific listening position) so it might be difficult to get that effect in one set area, let alone a multi zone or multi room club.

Last edited by DJ RANN on May-06-2011 at 18:01