I don't know about you all, but aside from switching DVS to Traktor Scratch Pro 2 a few months ago, I haven't made any significant purchase of new gear in a number of years. First, I'm happy with the gear I have and, second, I think it's analogous to the situation of how the new iPhone is just not a significant leap forward enough to make me want to upgrade. Back in the day (say ten years ago, for example), when Pioneer or Allen & Heath released new gear, it was a big deal because it wasn't happening on a yearly basis. These days I can't even keep up with what seems like the constant stream of small incremental upgrades to cdj's, djm mixers, nexus this and that, and the like.

Do you all think we've hit that point where we shouldn't expect anything extremely revolutionary moving forward? I haven't seen anything in the last few years that has wowed me in any meaningful way.

Discuss!

___________________
Click the link below to stream all of my mixes past and present. New mixes go up about once a month. Enjoy!

www.mixcloud.com/jluger

If it ain't broke don't fix it!
Personally for me two turntables and mixer and a good Daw and I'm OK!

___________________
Trance Addict 4 LIFE!

quote:

Dr.DRE "It's not the equipment....it's the muthaf@#%r running it"

quote:

Originally posted by Pagan-za Fighting online is like winning the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

I think there's a few things that have happened.

First, you have to realize that DJ tech is in relative terms, very young. Just look at the first dedicated (not repurposed live desks or broadcast stuff) around in the 80's and they were so basic. The crossfader was a massive revelation and that was around 1984. Then we got EQ's and Pans and then kill switches, then outboard FX units. These were all things that made incredible changes to the very fabric of DJ'ing.

As time went on, even though there were larger changes such as CDJ's and DVS, the basic premise from those first fundamental changes became much lesser increments of change - they've largely been convenience changes (i.e. easier to have more tracks or easier to beatmatch etc) and not really affected the art/craft itself.

It's got the point that "new" kit now is really just bells and whistles and IMO, it reached a critical of critical diminishing returns, where these changes weren't actually adding anything (i.e. pioneer's ever growing list of FX or endless flooding of the market with newer Mk.2 or 3 models which were really BETA product fixes). You then had mixer manufacturers like Innovation doing crazy shit like drum machines built in and transform switches which were moon shot stuff, most of it didn't stick (drum machines) but some did (leds for channel levels, transform buttons etc), and then other brands like Gemini and Numark which made the technology cheaper and more accessible but they didn't really break ground in terms of function.

With the above in mind, we're somewhat plateaued in terms of technology - we have what we need to achieve incredible music and a great DJing experience.

I for instance use a mixer (Vestax PMC 55) that was the pinnacle of engineering for DJ tech at it's peak - it does everything you need and if you need all those bells and whistles, it has the signal flow and I/O to accommodate. The only mixer than has made me interested was the new rane but seeing as I've got a brand new, untouched still boxed PMC55 as a spare, I can't really justify spending $2400+tax on a mixer that has the same functionality but adds a sweep filter.

Pioneer really dug themselves in to a hole by constantly pushing new things that weren't innovative. They also were incredibly bad at listening to people who used their stuff every day like venue engineers and live sound guys and proper working DJ's (not redlining fistpumping jesusposers). They let the marketing dept control their design decision and they paid for it with their company and reputation.

Technics basically nailed it 35 years ago and that design remained unchanged for a good reason as ATX alludes to - when you nail it, don't try to fix what aint broken.

And that's really the state of play. I am interested to see what the new 1200 brings as there seems to be a lot of updated technology to an old design so they may have actually perfect their own mousetrap but time will tell.....

....and even then, it's not like it's going to change the way we mix, is it?

Cue up two records, and mix them, using cuts, fades, EQ and Pan, maybe if your so inclined, sprinkle so fx but unless something changes that fundamental premise, there's won't be any real big new innovations in DJ'ing.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN First, you have to realize that DJ tech is in relative terms, very young. Just look at the first dedicated (not repurposed live desks or broadcast stuff) around in the 80's and they were so basic. The crossfader was a massive revelation and that was around 1984. Then we got EQ's and Pans and then kill switches, then outboard FX units. These were all things that made incredible changes to the very fabric of DJ'ing.

Are you sure about that?

I was under the impression the first crossfader was on the GLI PMX9000, from sometime around 1977/78. And weren't the first EQs on the Formula Sound PL80, from 1980?

___________________
Quarantine Classics Brunello di Montalcino (In Transit) Edition [Progressive Classics] (August 2020)
Quarantine Classics - Puligny-Montrachet Edition [Progressive Classics] (April 2020)
What Is Progressive Anyways? [Progressive House Classics] (November 2019)

quote:

Originally posted by Lews Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the first crossfader was on the GLI PMX9000, from sometime around 1977/78. And weren't the first EQs on the Formula Sound PL80, from 1980?

Ugh.

Yes, I too can google the terms "history of the DJ mixer" and find one of the first links which is David Cross's flawed thesis and go to page 14 where he wrongly assumes that is the history of the crossfader....I hate how one person retrospectively states something false and somehow it's gets propagated as fact.

In actuality, the crossfader has actually been experimented with as far back as the late 50's and the BBC had prototyped them for broadcast use since the late 60's.

The first commercially available mixer with a crossfader was released by citronic in the UK in the 1977, and a lot of DJ Mixer history posts omit that fact. There were then several other companies than the used the crossfader but it was in 1978 that PLI copied the idea for the PMX9000. The reason PLI mistakenly get the credit is that they were the first US company to make a mixer but both European and Japanese makers already had models for sale in the USA before PLI released the 9000. Both the Citronic and the PLI weren't readily available (club install mixers) and although less expensive than broadcast mixers, it was still out of reach for most DJ's so the crossfader didn't really make impact until every other DJ manufacturer had also jumped on the bandwagon and they beamce cheap. You have to realize that bozaks were around $3,000 in the late 70's and PLI were only slightly much less.

That's the equivalent of about $8-10k in today's money for a DJ mixer.

When the price dropped over the next few years, and people could afford them, was when all the hiphop guys started featuring crossfader cuts in their video and suddenly, in the mid 80's if your mixer didn't have a crossfader, it wasn't going to sell. The biggest impact from a consumer point of view was when Numark and Realistic started selling mixers like the Realistic 32-1200C which was available at radio shack and was dirt cheap.

As for the the first EQ'S? Nope, technically earlier. The PLI9000 had a 5 band EQ so that was 1978 but again for the reasons above, didn't catch on until the other manufacturers like Numark and Gemini and Rane made it readily accessible in mid 1980's. They later relased the 7000 which had a 3 band band EQ and I think that was about 1982 or 3. Formula sound were using EQ's (they were arguably one fo the first to make an external DJ EQ module) but their mixers were modular - you couldn't actually buy a ready made mixer from them. You had to buy faders, an EQ section, gains etc and put it all together so they were (and really still are) club install mixers.

Last edited by DJ RANN on Sep-24-2016 at 18:26

I'm actually not one to put much stock in undergraduate honour's theses, especially not ones written as poorly as Mr. Cross's; I said I was under the impression, not that I believed it was fact - though, in fact, my impression was not from his thesis, but from things I've read about the development of hip-hop. I think you're full of shit on most things you write about, but not about audio issues, hence why I asked you - it really was a most cordial question. I know little about audio technology, or technology in general, but I am very interested in the history of both hip-hop and dance music.

Obviously the BBC and others had already used them, hence your initial statement 'first dedicated (not repurposed live desks or broadcast stuff);' but also obviously crossfaders were being built and used for several years before 1984, which is why I was curious why you chose that year to single out.

Do you know why Citronic has been left behind by the history books? (Besides not being in the American market at first.) They still exist as a company, one would think they might be keen to capitalize on that - Rane has a whole extensive post on their website about their role with the development of the crossfader. Especially now that people are beginning to get so conscience about 'brand history.'

___________________
Quarantine Classics Brunello di Montalcino (In Transit) Edition [Progressive Classics] (August 2020)
Quarantine Classics - Puligny-Montrachet Edition [Progressive Classics] (April 2020)
What Is Progressive Anyways? [Progressive House Classics] (November 2019)

In fairness, my acidic response wasn't really aimed at you and my apologies if it came off that way; It's moreso the fact that incorrect assumptions made in someone's dodgy thesis starts getting quoted as fact and before you know it, the net is filled with some fictitious history all stemming from a single point of fantasy.

The reason I said.....

quote:

The crossfader was a massive revelation and that was around 1984.

.....was because I was referring to the point where it really became a mainstay and suddenly by I'd say 1983/84 you had a dozen, affordable manufacturers all adding crossfaders. It was only by then that it became the defacto if you wanted to sell a DJ mixer. Prior to that, yes, they had existed either in prototype/hand built/modular or incredibly expensive (even by todays standards) club install mixers (like the PLI) that were simply out of the reach of 99% of DJ's or music enthusiasts.

It was directly linked with with the rise "new school of hiphop" as they call it (or the "second wave" depending who you ask) which was 1983/84, where scratching really took off and the hiphop DJ started to come to prominence.

So it's not really about when the very first croassfader was put on a mixer, it's when it bacame a massive thing in the scene.

I'll give another example. DVS.

Several people claim to have invented from James Russel (the inventor of the CD) working with Steve West (the inventor of Serato) to RZA (yes, he of the Wu Tan) to Steven Carrol (who was the guy behind the legendary Intimidation products) to Jean-Mark bastian (who was granted a US patent in 2006 after the fact).

In essence there were working DVS systems as far back as 1996, and commercial products by 1998/99 such as the first iteration of Final Scratch but it wasn't really until 2002 that serato had a working platform and Stanton Final Scratch had a stable product, and then by 2004 everyone was all over it.

Just like the crossfader, that about 5 years from first released products to it becoming a massive change adopted by the DJ industry.

As for EQ's, they were available earlier but there's a distinction that matters:

Even the PLI had EQ's as mention above but they were a 5 band fader style EQ that was for the master output, not individual channels.

individual channel EQ was something that came later, which hoinestly is a bit strange if you think about it because every live/front of house desk and every single studio console since the 1940's always had channel EQ's but for DJ's they were largely omitted until the late 80's/early 90's.

quote:

Originally posted by Zak McKracken Ive been drooling on a setup like this but id had to sell my car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHPLFPMintM

Really? for all that kit, it takes them a full five minutes just get a beat and a hi hat. Kinda everything that's wrong with DJing.

Its' bonkers what's giong on with the price of technics though -

New, boxed Mk5g's are selling for $2k each!

Second hand ones in OK (not great) condition are going for $800-900 each.

I haven;t actually seen any of the new 1200GAE's in the wild. I surpised you have - they only made 1200 of them, 300 went on sale in Japan (and sold out in under 30 mins) and the remaining 900 were split across the rest of the world territories.

The USA only got something like 150 units and apparently no one in LA so I'm amazed that the land of the Norsk got some, let alone your local DJ shop.

$5K? really not a bad deal as if it's a proper GAE, that thing will keep it's value.

Actually, Technics are aiming it at hi end hifi - they apparently don't want it to be launched as a DJ product as such (although they know damn well that's what it will be sold as). The first 300 only went to hifi stores.

<---Slaps himself, misses his techs 12's

We all tried to tell you Juan.

Just got and get a good condition pair of 1210 Mk2's or if you have $1500 laying around, then pony up for mk5's. Either way, you won't regret it.