Fact: The US has averaged a major war every two years for the past fifty years! All of the last decade's involving the middle east.

Don't get me wrong I think Terrorists are the scum of the universe

BUT!

But but but...

If some mighty big power kept unloading half it's arsenal on top of me every couple of years I'd be kinda pissed off too by now!

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hmmmm that means that america has committed about 25 "major" wars in the past 50 years... let me see if i can count that high
1950-1953: Korean War
1964-1975: Vietnam War
1988-present: War on Drugs
1989: Invasion of Panama
1991: Gulf War
1992: US intervention in Somalia
1993: US intervention in Haiti
1995: NATO intervention in Bosnia
1999: NATO intervention in Kosovo
2002: Afghanistan
2002-future: War on terrorism
2003: Gulf War ep 2?


other mentions
1961 bay of pigs fiasco
1960-1990 cases of CIA or special forces actions during cold war (not defined as war)
1981 Iran Contra
1981 Lebenese Civil War


i dont think its as bad as you make it out to be, maybe i missed somethings but techinically in terms of "wars" or "major" ones at that there have only been the korean, vietnam, gulf and afgahn wars

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

You really think the war on drugs counts? i don't.

I believe there are more wars, I remember something about columbia, my memory is hazy, and i'm too lazy to go do the research right now, but a quick search came up with this:

http://www.colombiamobilization.org/

heres what HRW has to say only in regards to human rights violations of the US:

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/iraq/u...tary-action.htm

as for US military actions (not wars) abroad, there have been many more than 25.

quote:

This report lists 234 instances in which the United States has used its armed forces abroad in situations of conflict or potential conflict or for other than normal peacetime purposes. It brings up to date a 1989 list that was compiled in part from various older lists and is intended primarily to provide a rough sketch survey of past U.S. military ventures abroad. A detailed description and analysis are not undertaken here.

http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm

But, back to the original topic, why the terrorists hate us, well, has anyone read Bin Ladens letter? apparently it hasn't gotten much media coverage at all. Here it is:

(disclaimer: this is a link sent to me by a friend, i have no way of verifying if this is really bin ladens letter, nor if the translation is accurate)

http://www.planetmalek.com/dec02/dec02.php

This letter scares the shit out of me.

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quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith You really think the war on drugs counts? i don't.

sorry, that was a bad attempt at a joke (i forgot to add the smiley)

quote:

as for US military actions (not wars) abroad, there have been many more than 25.

i dont doubt that at all. there have probably been tons and tons of CIA operations and secret military operations over the years (i bet such is the case for any country with a fairly large military force: Russia, UK, Israel etc). all i was doing was saying that illusion's original statement is false.

quote:

But, back to the original topic, why the terrorists hate us, well, has anyone read Bin Ladens letter? apparently it hasn't gotten much media coverage at all. Here it is: (disclaimer: this is a link sent to me by a friend, i have no way of verifying if this is really bin ladens letter, nor if the translation is accurate) http://www.planetmalek.com/dec02/dec02.php This letter scares the shit out of me

yup scares the shit out of me too, especially the quotes from the Kuran (if they are true). actually it gets me more mad then anyhting else and re-affirms my committment to the war agianst al-queda

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Last edited by Izzy on Dec-07-2002 at 19:06

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith You really think the war on drugs counts? i don't. I believe there are more wars, I remember something about columbia, my memory is hazy, and i'm too lazy to go do the research right now, but a quick search came up with this:

Umm, the war on drugs, is the war on Columbia.. their are two governments right now in Columbia, the drug lords, and the legal government.. their is a war here, the US sides with the legal government gives them aid, training and support, and probably has limited role in aiding with air power and the like.

quote:

as for US military actions (not wars) abroad, there have been many more than 25. http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm

Right, this letter states every minor incident since 1798. Here is just an interesting list of a few I examined that shows you how it is not very significant in assessing number of 'major wars', or 'major military actions'

quote:

1946 -- Trieste. President Truman ordered the augmentation of U.S. troops along the zonal occupation line and the reinforcement of air forces in northern Italy after Yugoslav forces shot down an unarmed U.S. Army transport plane flying over Venezia Giulia. Earlier U.S. naval units had been dispatched to the scene. 1948 -- Palestine. A marine consular guard was sent to Jerusalem to protect the U.S. Consul General. 1948 -- Berlin. After the Soviet Union established a land blockade of the U.S., British, and French sectors of Berlin on June 24, 1948, the United States and its allies airlifted supplies to Berlin until after the blockade was lifted in May 1949. 1954-55 -- China. Naval units evacuated U.S. civilians and military personnel from the Tachen Islands. 1956 -- Egypt. A Marine battalion evacuated U.S. nationals and other persons from Alexandria during the Suez crisis.

Wow, the US evacuated their citizens because other people went to war! Damn, when will those machoistic militarist learn, I hope the US crumbles and it's superpower..umm..ness will fall! How dare they take such bold actions just like that with no UN security council resolution or antying.. who gives them the right to do something like that!

hehe, damn writing things like that are fun, no wonder their are so many hippies

I believe Izzy's count is fairly accurate.. though I do think he fight have forgotten one, but it slips my mind if he did, none the less I think he proved his point very nicely. Indeed the guy with first point made a lie, and he didn't let him get away with it.

well, point taken, and like i said, not wars. I'd like to know where illusion got that info in any case.

fact remains though, whether it's 25 or 16 as izzy posted, the US has been involved in a lot of wars, some for just reasons, some not.

and this has contribued to terrorism.

does this excuse or justify what the terrorists have done and are doing? in no way shaper or form, terrorism is evil.

however, while not an excuse, this is the cause.

I think, if the US want to decrease it's likelihood of being a terrorist target, then a formal US response to bin ladens letter is in order. the US should withdraw troops and support from where they have no right to be. this will decrease terrorism.

However, i think that the US should send a strong message back that they will never bow to the jihad, and america will always remain a country where the govt is secular and people are free to practice any religion they like.

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quote:

Originally posted by Izzy hmmmm that means that america has committed about 25 "major" wars in the past 50 years... let me see if i can count that high 1950-1953: Korean War 1964-1975: Vietnam War 1988-present: War on Drugs 1989: Invasion of Panama 1991: Gulf War 1992: US intervention in Somalia 1993: US intervention in Haiti 1995: NATO intervention in Bosnia 1999: NATO intervention in Kosovo 2002: Afghanistan 2002-future: War on terrorism 2003: Gulf War ep 2? other mentions 1961 bay of pigs fiasco 1960-1990 cases of CIA or special forces actions during cold war (not defined as war) 1981 Iran Contra 1981 Lebenese Civil War i dont think its as bad as you make it out to be, maybe i missed somethings but techinically in terms of "wars" or "major" ones at that there have only been the korean, vietnam, gulf and afgahn wars

Uh huh, and you think these are all *MAJOR* wars. I mean come on, lets go over these one by one shall we.

1950-1953: Korean War (a signifigant war, little beating about the bush, maybe a 100,000 dead, not sure on the numbers though)
1964-1975: Vietnam War I'll give you major here
1988-present: War on Drugs Haha, dont make me laugh
1989: Invasion of Panama right, I suppose this was ahem, a *major* war, not even close
1991: Gulf War nah, wasn't a major war in any way
1992: US intervention in Somalia LOL, where was the war, this was a humanitarian mission gone bad
1993: US intervention in Haiti Not a major war by any stretch of the imagination
1995: NATO intervention in Bosnia Nowhere near major
1999: NATO intervention in Kosovo same as Bosnia
2002: Afghanistan No, not major
2002-future: War on terrorism Afganistan was a part of the war on terror, these two should be essentially together, and no, they are not major wars
2003: Gulf War ep 2? Probably not a major war, we'll have to wait and see


other mentions
1961 bay of pigs fiasco A fiasco or botched up military mission does not equal a major war
1960-1990 cases of CIA or special forces actions during cold war (not defined as war) Cold war operations might be considered major in the context of how the cold war was fought
1981 Iran Contra No
1981 Lebenese Civil War No

You did forget two actual major wars... WWI & II... so out of your so called 25 major wars, I give you 3, WWI, II, & Vietnam... I'll give you a 4th, (Korean War) if it'll make you feel better. On a side note, if the invasion of Panama was a major war, what would constitute in your opinion, a minor war.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Right, this letter states every minor incident since 1798. Here is just an interesting list of a few I examined that shows you how it is not very significant in assessing number of 'major wars', or 'major military actions'

Minor incident is exactly what most of what he listed is. A minor incident & a major war are exact opposites with a lot of in betweens. To say the US has engaged in 25 major wars in the past 50 years is a farce, I doubt any country on Earth could survive 25 major wars in 50 years.

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quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith as for US military actions (not wars) abroad, there have been many more than 25.

yeh if we go back to the 1600's

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by Verona^My Minor incident is exactly what most of what he listed is. A minor incident & a major war are exact opposites with a lot of in betweens. To say the US has engaged in 25 major wars in the past 50 years is a farce, I doubt any country on Earth could survive 25 major wars in 50 years.

while i agree, i hardly think that the difference between what's a major and what's a minor war bears debating.

you say afghanistan was not a major war? well, i agree, in a sense that in a war two sides are fighting, whereas in afghanistan it was only the US dropping bombs on a largely innocent population in hopes of eliminating the taliban, al qaeda, and osama.

In terms of civillian death tolls however, there were at least 3000 civilians killed in afghanistan.

quote:

What causes the documented high level of civilian casualties -- 3,000 - 3,400 civilian deaths -- in the U.S. air war upon Afghanistan? The explanation is the apparent willingness of U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into and drop bombs upon, heavily populated areas of Afghanistan.

source: http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

Compare that with the death toll in the Sept 11th attacks, officially now, 2,795.

quote:

The number of dead now stands at 2,795, but this figure is expected to fall further as investigators continue to wade through missing person reports.

source: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeas...wtc.death.toll/

now, i'd hardly say that the WTC attack was not "major", but when you put in context with other things, it becomes obvious that in terms of death, it's really not all that many people.

it also becomes obvious that no matter how you want to call it, it was horrible, and that's the thing we should be discussing, and perhaps how to stop it.

in terms of raw numbers though, more than three times that amount die every day from aids in the world
source: http://www.worldaidsday.org/facts/index.cfm?&print=yes
(sorry it tries to print)

by some estimates, over half a million iraqi children have died under UN sanctions.

just a few things to think about.

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quote:

Originally posted by Izzy hmmmm that means that america has committed about 25 "major" wars in the past 50 years... let me see if i can count that high 1950-1953: Korean War 1964-1975: Vietnam War 1988-present: War on Drugs 1989: Invasion of Panama 1991: Gulf War 1992: US intervention in Somalia 1993: US intervention in Haiti 1995: NATO intervention in Bosnia 1999: NATO intervention in Kosovo 2002: Afghanistan 2002-future: War on terrorism 2003: Gulf War ep 2? other mentions 1961 bay of pigs fiasco 1960-1990 cases of CIA or special forces actions during cold war (not defined as war) 1981 Iran Contra 1981 Lebenese Civil War i dont think its as bad as you make it out to be, maybe i missed somethings but techinically in terms of "wars" or "major" ones at that there have only been the korean, vietnam, gulf and afgahn wars

When I used the words "A major war" I wasn't refering to any specific war.
If you simply count all the number of years that the country has been at war, that's how it will average out. Notice the word "Average"?

hhhmm I was quite sure I used pretty simple language there....

___________________
Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent; that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

..and compare to the scope of the "50 major wars" very few have dealt with issues relating to the middle east. In Izzy's list only the Iran-Contra affair, and the Gulf War. Obviously you can add the arms sales to Iraq here, which upset Iran and Saudi, but the Saudis where made happy since they got arms too... and well the selling of arms to israel, but the Egyptians are happy about that - so long as israel gets arms, so do they, just Syria got pissed on that one, since their arms seller (russia) went bankrupt.

In all reality, these few little things are not much worse then what the USA has done in other parts of the world, and therefore the assertion that it is because of this policy that the outcome of terrorism was established is false.