OK folks, first a disclaimer: Let's keep our flames nice and organized... Name calling would be inappropriate, I feel this is just a good place to "vent".

While reading other postings it dawned on me... (boy am I quick or what?) -

...Why DJs are new "Rock Stars"? When I hear that PvD or Armin or Ferry can make about $20-50K a night, I realize that the "Age of DJ" is upon us. Not saying that it's undeserved but, it really chaps my arsehole when someone associates great music with a DJ, without giving any props to the original producer!!! Granted, some DJs _ARE_ producers as well, but overall, is this the ultimate "money for nothing, chix for free"???

Don't get me wrong... But what really tics me is that DJ is just an outlet for music... Shit, for majority of my life my association with DJ was the dude that spun the records holed up somewhere in the corner. What I think is really wrong with the scene is that you "fail to see the forest, 'coz we stuck staring at the tree". Look, no offense but DJ, unless he's a producer just adds a slight shade to already beautfiful picture. Of course, we have PvDs and AvBs and Tiestos that really re-work peice of dung into a masterpiece - but really... Let's give credit where credit is due!!!

When people are cheering in the club, most of the time they are cheering the tune - not the guy who's playing it... Take Ferry's "Punk"... Great choon... But take someone like Pete Moutso (DJ from Glow) - have him put on "Punk" and then slap on "Another Way" follow it up with "Diving" and fade into "Taub" and you got a banging ass set and all of the sudden, Pete is a "god" (notice small "g")... Nothing against Pete, nor did he play that set, but you catch my point. Sure, skills of a DJ are important - you gotta be able to read the crowd, you gotta mix, beatmatch, you gotta do tons of other things but face it: Punk was produced by Ferry, Another Way by PvD, Diving by Four Strings, etc.... Where does producer get the props???

I don't think it's fair, but I guess nothing can be done about that. Sure, we want variety - we want not just Rank 1 but some Blackeight; so, to wrap it up - am I totally off the mark here or is there some sense to my "anguish"???

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Proud member of the "Filthy Zionist" coalition

I think this is because Trance is going mainstream, you can't stop it, no-one can.

Maybe you didn't notice, but you opened 4 threads instead of 1. You can delete the other 3.

Good point but I think your argument is kinda flawed.

For me DJing is an art that consists of the blending of melodies and rhythms, creating contrasts, and doing all sorts of effects to alter the mood of the dancefloor. Not everyone has the true artistic talent to do this. I mean, anyone can get the latest records and play them one after the other. If you think that makes that DJ a God, then you're a bad electronic music critic. However, DJs like PvD, Armin, Tiesto etc. got to where they are because they have that special touch, in addition to adding their own productions in the mix. Even if a lot of people say that PvD and Tiesto can't beatmatch for shit (I disagree with that), the way they do contrasts and play with the audience is unique and impossible to imitate by anyone else. I can tell a Tiesto mix from miles away if I hear how he blended one track into the other and how he did the UPS and DOWNS of the set.

I understand DJs usually play "other people's music", but so do the most trained musicians in the world: classical musicians. What do symphony orchestras do? They play Beethoven, Brahms, Stravinsky etc. etc. etc. Yet it is not the same to hear Beethoven's 9th Symphony performed by your local youth orchestra than by the New York or Berlin Philharmonic (which probably charges about $80,000 a performance). The piece is a classic by itself, but the level of performance can have a dramatic impact on the listener's appreciation.

IMO, what my favorite DJs do with records is much more admirable than the work done by any rock bands or pop singers from today that make much more money than them. For me, a DJ is like an symphony conductor, but if you come from a pop music perspective then what you say makes perfect. Peace.

I can see what you mean.But usually,when big djs play a tune that goes down well,ppl will wonder who made it.And then when they find that out,the producers will get all the credit they deserve.Look at Mirco De Govia.When PvD played Epic Monolith first time around,everyone was like "woooooooow!what is this tune?!"Now look where Mirco is at.His remixes of Ralphie B,Sonorous and Sun Decade has made him one of the most popular producers in the trance scene,and has lifted Euphonic Recs. several feet up into the spotlight.So basically,DJs are gateways of attention for other producers to walk through if the DJs deem them worthy.(i.e.whether they like the tune or not)

So basically,complaining about why DJs should get credit when all they do is play other ppl's tracks is like saying:"why should you get the credit for building a house when you didn't make the materials yourself?"

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"Wenn du dich zum Untergrund zählst, reicht es nicht, es nur zu sagen. Du musst auch viel graben, um es zu werden."

quote:

Originally posted by DJ PíO I understand DJs usually play "other people's music", but so do the most trained musicians in the world: classical musicians. What do symphony orchestras do? They play Beethoven, Brahms, Stravinsky etc. etc. etc. Yet it is not the same to hear Beethoven's 9th Symphony performed by your local youth orchestra than by the New York or Berlin Philharmonic (which probably charges about $80,000 a performance). The piece is a classic by itself, but the level of performance can have a dramatic impact on the listener's appreciation.

real good point, i hadn't thought of that one. And like you said earlier, a DJ leaves his mark. Even if AVB or Tiesto where to spin a very similar set, meaning tracks. The sound and atmosphere although both great is entirely different. the feel to the music is just completly a being in itself. At least that's how it felt the last time i saw these two.

that is true

quote:

Take Ferry's "Punk"... Great choon... But take someone like Pete Moutso (DJ from Glow) - have him put on "Punk" and then slap on "Another Way" follow it up with "Diving" and fade into "Taub" and you got a banging ass set and all of the sudden, Pete is a "god" (notice small "g")...

You've pretty much answered your own question with that...
And your answer and argument is extremely flawed in one major way: why is he a god for palying those songs? If you've seen some of the tracklists that people spin themselves post on this board, then are they not god even by a larger sense? Uninspired tracklists and boring set construction hidden by slamming huge tune after huge tune is the problem here...and for some reason, which I have no idea why, people tend to worship this, and DJs know this, therefore they continue to do it...it's a self feeding cycle that'll never end and never regress as long as trance is alive and continues to churn(not produce) song after song. How many times have we heard Punk and Southern Sun this year?

quote:

And like you said earlier, a DJ leaves his mark. Even if AVB or Tiesto where to spin a very similar set, meaning tracks. The sound and atmosphere although both great is entirely different. the feel to the music is just completly a being in itself. At least that's how it felt the last time i saw these two.

If a DJ leaves his mark, then how can they spin a similar set? What your saying is that if a unknown DJ vs AvB or Tiesto spun a similar set(it can be the exact same too, cuz it won't matter) the feel for Tiesto or AvB would be "different"...no offense, but that's a crock of shit. Your putting more weight on the name of the DJ then the actual quality of the set.
I see alot of this on this board...people say that the set construction and progression is important, however the big name DJ gets the favor just cuz he's the big name DJ. I don't understand...and in the middle of this is the DJ, who always comes out winning with a $50K check in his hand because he doesn't care if the tune is overplayed...he just plays it, and knows that he'll be revered for it.

quote:

So basically,DJs are gateways of attention for other producers to walk through if the DJs deem them worthy whether they like the tune or not

Ehhh...no. If they didn't like the tune, they wouldn't play it. Simple as that.

quote:

So basically,complaining about why DJs should get credit when all they do is play other ppl's tracks is like saying:"why should you get the credit for building a house when you didn't make the materials yourself?"

Not entirely true. It's the basic principle on which we are arguing back and forth which also doubles as the problem: why are thes DJs getting paid on a night as much as some families do in a year when all they do is play tune after tune. Sure, each DJ has his or own unique style, but that's no valid reason why these DJs are revered as gods...in fact, IMO, trance DJs are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to performances. Can't compare them to a hip hop show or rock concert or classical concert in terms of talent and skill. You just can't.
That's my point. DJs are victims of their own trend, and cash in on it, while people blindly follow them wherever they go, and whatever tune they play...big or not.

Not a bad point, but you make it sound like any random asshole can throw together some records and a crossfader and become a superstar. Maybe they can with todays commercialized cheese trance, but a REALLY good DJ is prehaps even more skilled than the producer of his tunes. He senses the crowd, reads the atmosphere, and basically hes making the night. This skill takes many years to define, and it takes a special gift just to understand it. Its no conincidence that some of the best tunes come from some of the best DJ's. If people just wanted to hear tunes they could pop a CD into a ghetto blaster at home, gather some friends, get a black light, and have a do it yourself party. They go to see a great DJ because he takes ordinary tunes and makes them into an experience you cant get with a random asshole tossing together anthems.

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NEW MIX [Feb/March 2008]

quote:

Originally posted by dJohn IMO, trance DJs are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to performances. Can't compare them to a hip hop show or rock concert or classical concert in terms of talent and skill. You just can't.

This is true, sadly.

The thing about the big, "godly" trance DJ's (and other electronica DJ's but trance in particular) is that they got their status by doing something new. Nowadays, of course, there are thousands of people that can spin like AVB, or Tiesto - perhaps even better. But it's too late - Tiesto has already made a spot for himself, and it's very very hard to get to his level.

Actually, I'd like to argue that it's impossible, if you want to spin his style of trance. You simply cannot get to his level at all.

You need to innovate, to do something new. That's why DJ-producers are valued more highly than just plain DJ's.

Now, if you produced some new subgenre of trance, and got popular for it, then in 5 years you would be a god for that kind of trance, and people in that time would complain, "Why is DJ such-and-such so popular? All he does is take songs of this new trance genre and plops them together."

Well, you can see that the plain answer is, "duh he's been doing it since day 1." The same thing applies to Tiesto etc. They've been doing it since day 1. They were the first. You can't follow in their footsteps, because it's too late. Now everyone wants to be the next trance superstar DJ, and I'm sorry to say that it's simply just straight-out impossible.

Try inventing a new kind of music, or a new kind of trance, and you might get somewhere.

they are the new stars but at least rock stars know when to quit!!!!!!!! unlike dj's, ffs if led zeplin were still the #1` rock band u would have to worry wouldnt you


*thinks of some big nammed dj's*

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quote:

originall posted by dJohn Ehhh...no. If they didn't like the tune, they wouldn't play it. Simple as that.

Ehhh...that was my point.If the djs deem them worthy means that they like the tune,and then play it.Otherwise the producers wouldn't be allowed to walk through the gatway of attention that big djs are.

quote:

Not entirely true. It's the basic principle on which we are arguing back and forth which also doubles as the problem: why are thes DJs getting paid on a night as much as some families do in a year when all they do is play tune after tune. Sure, each DJ has his or own unique style, but that's no valid reason why these DJs are revered as gods...in fact, IMO, trance DJs are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to performances. Can't compare them to a hip hop show or rock concert or classical concert in terms of talent and skill. You just can't. That's my point. DJs are victims of their own trend, and cash in on it, while people blindly follow them wherever they go, and whatever tune they play...big or not.

My point was,it takes more than just slapping a vinyl on a turntable and mix it to make it as big as the big name djs we are talking about here.It takes timing,creativity,the ability to read a crowd etc. etc.And you don't get that by simply mixing a bunch of records after another.It takes many,many years of training and also loads of talent to get it as right as the ppl we're talking about here do.Not to men tion that you virtually HAVE TO make your own records,which is even harder to break through with these days.And when these talented ppl manage to make it big,why should we hold that against them?Sure,we don't have to follow them around like gods,but still.And why can we not compare these ppl to ppl who are talented rappers or rock perfomers?Is djing not as "professional" or "hard to master" as playing a guitar or rapping?That smells like an elitist statement to me...

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"Wenn du dich zum Untergrund zählst, reicht es nicht, es nur zu sagen. Du musst auch viel graben, um es zu werden."

quote:

Originally posted by Alccode This is true, sadly. The thing about the big, "godly" trance DJ's (and other electronica DJ's but trance in particular) is that they got their status by doing something new. Nowadays, of course, there are thousands of people that can spin like AVB, or Tiesto - perhaps even better. But it's too late - Tiesto has already made a spot for himself, and it's very very hard to get to his level. Actually, I'd like to argue that it's impossible, if you want to spin his style of trance. You simply cannot get to his level at all. You need to innovate, to do something new. That's why DJ-producers are valued more highly than just plain DJ's. Now, if you produced some new subgenre of trance, and got popular for it, then in 5 years you would be a god for that kind of trance, and people in that time would complain, "Why is DJ such-and-such so popular? All he does is take songs of this new trance genre and plops them together." Well, you can see that the plain answer is, "duh he's been doing it since day 1." The same thing applies to Tiesto etc. They've been doing it since day 1. They were the first. You can't follow in their footsteps, because it's too late. Now everyone wants to be the next trance superstar DJ, and I'm sorry to say that it's simply just straight-out impossible. Try inventing a new kind of music, or a new kind of trance, and you might get somewhere.

Hum... lots of excellent views here. I am not bashing DJs, as a matter of fact I worship the very same people I named, as well as others... What amazes me is that from what I understand not that many producers make as much cash writing killer tunes as DJs who spin them. As far as the concept of DJ introducing us to new tallent, that has been so for many years - we're talking decades. Many wonderful musicians wouldn't have been discovered if it wasn't for a DJ... Let's take PPK - I have been following them since they first showed up on MP3.com (we're talking like 98/99) - back then no one even knew what was "Resurection". Next thing u know, Oakey spun the record in Moscow, crowd went nuts, Oakey went "Hummmmmmmmmmm... Caaaching!!!" and the rest is history. So, I got no problem wit that, as a matter of fact I'd love to get discovered that way and wouldn't care if I had to give away my music free for the next 3 years, just to hear my favorite DJ spin my tune... What I am saying is that I realize that technique, "crowd control", and charisma are all factors in this but is it trully fair to consider someone like Tiesto a "god"?

Anywho - you got me thinkin... If you can't break through spinnin' trance and producing trance... how come so many ppl are being recognized??? Right - coz' u can! It's just harder. Look around - for everything you see there's at least one competitor, if not more... Hell, how many cell shops do you see around??? Everyone has a cell now, there's a cellphone store around every corner - and everyone makes out allright... Not an ideal analogy, but I hope u get the point. And by the way, few months ago I decided to see how hard would it be to produce something like Armin's Sunburn... Guess what, within 2 weeks I was able to replicate the track almost down to the last bit. Granted, it takes a long time to experiment with sounds, come up with an idea, lay it down, mix it master it, etc... But I would not go as far as comparing Trance to Classical music, moreover orchestral piece... To say something like that is an utter disrespect to the foundation of today's music. Everywhere you look, you find elements of classical music (ok, maybe not in prog... maybe not in jungle... hum... not in acid house...... huh.. list goes on) and to compare complexities of Bethoven's Symphony #9 with even the most diverse Trance track, you just can't... Keep in mind, Mozarts, Bethovens, and Bachs did not have computerized sequencers, mixers, and synths... All they had was their brain and feel for the music.... You wanna find today's Bach/Bethoven/Mozart - look at BT ... but the list is rather short.

I'll stop my rant... right about .....NOW!
/me The Original Silly Muppet

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Proud member of the "Filthy Zionist" coalition