As a rebuttal to "Education"...

Education isn't what it's cracked up to be unless you want that fancy piece of paper on your wall that allows you to compete with other people that have fancy pieces of paper on their wall for a JOB...

I totally agree with RabbitJoker...start a business and don't become a slave to someone else's dream and buying your boss's cars...

quote:

Rich, poor differ on how to be a success Rich cite hard work, poor say education Kate Jaimet The Ottawa Citizen Rich Canadians think hard work is the key to success, while poor Canadians think a university education is what counts, a poll commissioned by the Montreal-based Association for Canadian Studies indicates. The telephone survey of 1,507 adult Canadians carried out Feb. 20-26 found that 30 per cent of people who make more than $80,000 a year ranked a good work ethic as the primary key to success. University education came in a close second at 28 per cent. But among those who earned less than $20,000 a year, 29 per cent said a university education was most important, and only 19 per cent attributed success to a good work ethic. "That's a big paradox," said Jack Jedwab, executive director of the Association for Canadian Studies. "People who achieve success think it's by virtue of hard work, and people who don't achieve that success think it's because they don't have a university education." The poll found that overall in Canada, 27 per cent of people rated a university education as the main key to success. A good work ethic was named as the most important factor by 23 per cent of people, while 19 per cent chose work skills learned on the job and another 19 per cent chose knowing how to get along with other people. The poll is considered accurate to within 2.2 percentage points, 19 times out of 20. Christian Sylvain, director of government relations and public affairs for the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, said the poll shows Canadians value a university education. "I think Canadians understand that job growth is the strongest in the areas that require a university education. Those that don't have a university education, I think, are starting to realize the labour market is shifting." Mr. Sylvain said enrolment in universities has grown by 80,000 students over the past four years. But Mr. Jedwab said the poll should send a message to universities that they are not doing a good enough job of promoting the value of post-secondary education. He said he expected more people to pick university education as the top factor for success in life. In a similar poll in the United States, he said, 35 per cent of people ranked a university education first. Especially troublesome, Mr. Jedwab said, is the fact that people between 25 and 44 rate a good work ethic higher than a university education as a key to success. This could mean that graduates are disillusioned with the jobs they are able to get with their degrees.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Bottom line, you need education AND hard work to become successfull at the corporate level.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I totally agree with RabbitJoker...start a business and don't become a slave to someone else's dream and buying your boss's cars...

its not that easy...90% of all newly started small businesses fail within the first 5 years of existence. Thats a pretty high percentage. Of course, you could take the risk cause where would this world be without those risktakers that started with nothing, put an arm and a leg on the line and survived, but you gotta be prepared for it. You need to be willing to work unnaturally long hours for a little while, be prepared if your business goes to shit and you're in debt.

I'd rather get a piece of paper, work for a few years, get experience and then maybe start a business

quote:

Originally posted by Czaoth Bottom line, you need education AND hard work to become successfull at the corporate level.

BullShit.

Who TOld u that? Your Profs? They Lie. That is their Job to keep u there and not expose you to the harsh reality.

I am gonna focus on IT itself and here is a shocker for you. For those that are into IT and are at college now and university Guess what? U will not get a job unless u got some certifications + 3 or more years of experience. I am actually COnsidering Dropping out of Humber and getting my certifications instead. Poeple I know, who are even better than I am, Graduated from humber in IT in the top 5. Guess what? They are all still looking for a job since last year. Why? Because they have no certifications (A+, MCSE ETC.) and NO expereince. Who will give them the IT expereince they neeed? No One. One of them is actually working fot his old co-op place and getting 9 bucks an hour for networking PCs and maintaining them and the other is NEtoworking for fuckin Eskimos in Alberta for 12 bucks an hour. Best $7000 (Plus OSAP Interest) they ever spent. It's a good thing all I owe OSAP is little under 1500. I am totally Agreeing with Fir3start3r and say it is not worth it. The only way u can get a job is through hookups right now. Other than that u are ina big pile of resumes on some guys desk where he will pull one out. Things have Changed a lot in the last 3 years.

I know other ppl who wanted to get their Oracle ertifications in January and mae them buy the "study package" which they say has "Everything they need to pass the certification exam". What they did not tell them is that the package is totally useless and that the certifcation they are taking (oracle 8i in this case) was going to neet to be upgraded a week later becasue at the end of Janaury they quit giving ORacle 8i certifications casue oracle 9i became "Standard". No one told my Friends this, not even the teachers. This was not just at humber by the way, where I go. This happened at sheridan too.

When I joined the Computer network and Support Technician PRogram I was told that we have a 95% chance of a Job placement IMMIDIATELY after we graduated as we were "supousingly" sought after becasue we are from humber. My school lies to me, your school lies to you. They don;t care, and when u graduate u wind up realizing that it ain't worth squat. You can ARgue with me if u want. But that is the way it is in my school. I hope this does not happen to anyone else where the politics of your school winds up fucking yo in the ass for profit.

Sorry for the rant but I had to get that out . I Feel Relieved all of the sudden.

___________________
..Now Fully Evolved
My New Home << Updated October 2010 - New sets coming soon. New EP almost done.
My New Hobby Protodome Radio

lol Firestarter,
this article that you have quoted disproves the point that you're trying to make.

Also, College education and Univ education are different, very different, so different that one is an educational institution and the other is a "skills program". You tell me which one is worth while taking.

Having an 'education' and being 'educated' in your field can mean totally different things...

How many people do you know that have their papers in whatever field they chose and don't know know jack when they get in the real world?

I'll give you a hint; more than might think.

Don't get me wrong, education and higher-schooling is great for expanding your mind to possiblities, social skills and worldly matters, but isn't the be all - end all that's it cracked up to be.

I have tons of friends who have an education and aren't even working in their field (sound familiar?) and have others that didn't take higher education routes and are very successful with their own businesses because they worked very hard and could dance circles around formally educated people.
School does not prepare you for real life (unfortunately).

The few that have taken the higher education route are way deeper in debt. than the ones that haven't taken the beaten path.

In short,

Never be afraid to fail.
Success is a serials of failures and is not a destination as much as a journey.
Work hard, play hard and do your best all the time!

You'll be much happier!!!

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Z lol Firestarter, this article that you have quoted disproves the point that you're trying to make. Also, College education and Univ education are different, very different, so different that one is an educational institution and the other is a "skills program". You tell me which one is worth while taking.

Actually it just proves how wrong our thinking is...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

E-master:
==========
Your school promised you a 95% employement at times when market was booming. Market is in shit right now. Hence no 95% employment. Hell, people with 20 years of experience are jobless for months at the moment.

Now about certifications and 3 months courses. It's because of those people who got their certifications and haven't got any education that MOST software right now is SHIT! You think your certification will make you qualified for the job?? No fuckin' way! It might help you find a job, but you'll be FAR FAR less qualified than someone who actually got post-secondary education and doesn't have your stupid certification. SMART employers realize that and will give priority to someone with higher education. The purpose of post-secondary education is not to teach you a particular topic(ie. Oracle). The purpose(at least as it seems to me) is to teach you how to learn. This is FAR FAR more important.

I have a lot of friends who've graduated CS from University of Waterloo last year, when market was at it's worst. They had trouble getting a job, but they GOT it!


Education is THE most important thing for your success and career.

___________________

My Blog: durafei.blogspot.com - Last Update March 23, 2006

BTW, it's funny how nobody mentions that you need to be smart to be successful. Well, you don't HAVE to be smart(there are many exceptions :rolleyes, but it's definitely important.

I guess everybody wants to be politically correct and just assume that all people have the same abilities and hence the only difference between then is university education and # of certificates they got etc.

___________________

My Blog: durafei.blogspot.com - Last Update March 23, 2006

Well, I couldn't agree more with Durafei, on everything you've said...

You can get certified anytime you want, but getting a higher (univ.) education, you cannot do it that easily...

Plus, the way I see it, when I'm done with Ryerson I'll be like $30,000 in debt, so why bother paying it off with a possibly shitty job market in this country when I can just fly over to Europe, get a solid job down there and forget about the debt. Maybe I'll even pay them back once I save up enough dough.

___________________

Keep it real, and stay single, always mingle...

E*Master, i am in the IT corporate world, a few years removed from school so I speak with a certain measure of experience (ie never mind what the teacher said comment)

There are alot of different roads to success, some are on the beaten path others are on the less travelled one. One thing is for sure, if you give yourself as many tools as possible to succeed, you are more LIKELY to succeed then if you cut corners. Note the use of the word likely, there never are any guarantees.

Durafei is bang on. Bottom line the more you have under your belt the more you have going for you. There was a day when professional IT certificates without experience got you a job. Now you need experience, take the professional certs and then that opens new doors within the field you are in.

I'll take the field i'm as an example : You get certified as an Oracle DBA, yet have never used an oracle database in a production envivonment. Interest in hiring you? a big fat 0 (Oracle DBA is the last step in that ladder, you can't jump to it right away). The real way to use certifications, IMO : You get hired as a junior Oracle database analyst, you work in that environment for a few years, hone your SQL skills and comprehension of relational databases and then get certifed as an Oracle DBA. You are now positioned to have hope in landing a DBA job as you have related experience.

Last edited by Czaoth on Mar-12-2003 at 17:18

As another stay in school plug, i'd like to present an experience that a friend has had recently.

He's been working in IT for about 6 years, got into it with a high school diploma, a couple year of college (dropped out b4 graduating) and an obvious knack for PCs when the demand for IT workers was high and the supply was low. He got a few certifications along the way (A+ and a few MCSE courses).

An opportunity presents itself with the RCMP, in their IT department. He is fully qualified, has all the experience required and lands the job at the 1st interview. He's looking forward to the nice 13000$ pay raise...A day later he gets a call back saying that his education does not meet the requirements, that he needs to have any kind of diploma from college or university. The job offer is cancelled. His experience didn't buy him that, neither did the certs. He lost the job and is damn sad about it.

The lesson : Don't let that be you cause it will catch up to you someday...