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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX
Shame / Disagreement Neocons: Going Back Where They Came From

FFS, just let these guys form their own little party.


http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=2371

quote:


Going Back Where They Came From

by Patrick J. Buchanan
"If we have to make common cause with the more hawkish liberals and fight the conservatives, that is fine with me," William Kristol has told the New York Times.

The Weekly Standard editor added that the neoconservatives may just abandon the Right altogether and convert to neo-liberalism.

Alluding to his father Irving's definition of a neoconservative as a liberal who has been mugged by reality, Kristol describes a neoliberal as a "neoconservative who has been mugged by reality in Iraq."

Ranking his political preferences, Kristol added, "I will take Bush over Kerry, but Kerry over Buchanan....If you read the last few issues of The Weekly Standard, it has as much or more in common with the liberal hawks than with traditional conservatives."

Yes, it does. But as John Kerry backs partial birth abortion, quotas, raising taxes, homosexual unions, liberals on the Supreme Court and has a voting record to the left of Teddy Kennedy, how can Kristol prefer him to other conservatives? Answer: War and Israel.

Like Kristol, Kerry wants more U.S. troops sent to Iraq where they can advance the neocons' project for empire. And at a fund-raiser in Juno Beach, Fla., Kerry declared eternal fealty to Israel: "I have a 100 percent record – not a 99, a 100 percent record – of sustaining the special relationship and friendship that we have with Israel."

Kristol's warning that the neocons could break with the Right and go to Kerry is an admission of what many conservatives have long argued. To neocons, Israel comes first, second, and third, conservative principles be damned.

The day after Kristol said he preferred Kerry to conservatives skeptical of committing more troops to Iraq, this item appeared in The Wall Street Journal:

"Mr. Kristol thinks Mr. Bush should use the revelations [from the Woodward book] to shake up his war cabinet by firing Mr. Powell...along with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who has pushed for smaller deployments of U.S. forces than some critics, including Mr. Kristol, think wise."

Set aside the suicidal folly of Bush dynamiting his war cabinet in an election year by firing its most famous members, and consider the ingratitude, the ruthlessness, and the cynicism on display here.

When it was launched in 1995, The Weekly Standard called on Colin Powell to run for president and offered its endorsement. Purpose: Hook up with the most popular man in the GOP who could restore the neocons and Kristols to preeminence and power. Powell rebuffed the offer. Ever since, he has been a target of abuse for having repelled the boarding party.

As for Rumsfeld, he has been a hero of neoconservatives for two decades. He co-signed the neocons' 1998 open letter to Clinton urging war on Iraq. He brought Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith into his Pentagon in the No. 2 and 3 slots. He put Perle in charge of the Defense Review Board. After 9/11, according to Richard Clarke, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were making the case for attacking Iraq immediately, even before Bush had ousted the Taliban enablers of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden.

Agree or disagree with the defense secretary, Rumsfeld has been a lion in the neocon cause. To see the Weekly Standard snake on him like this brings to mind that wretched crowd in Yankee Stadium that took to booing Joe Dimaggio at the end of his career.

With Iraq turning into the Mesopotamian morass some of us warned it would become, the neo-Jacobins have decided they are not going to be the ones to ride the tumbrels.

In times like this character comes through. By turning on the men they persuaded to go to war, by fabricating alibis and inventing excuses to absolve themselves of culpability for what they labored to create, they have revealed themselves for what they are: hustlers and opportunists devoid of principle, driven by an ideology of power and a passionate attachment to a nation not their own.

The Old Right curmudgeons who warned us against giving these vagabonds food, shelter and a warm place by the fire were right. We should have put them back out on the street.

President Bush should have listened to his father who kept the neocons at some remove, and he had best beware, because they have a major card yet to play. That card is escalation.

With the situation in Iraq deteriorating, the neocon agenda is to widen the war into Syria, Iran and perhaps Saudi Arabia, and convert it into "World War IV," the war of their dreams, a war of civilizations, an Armageddon, with America and Israel on one side and Islam on the other.

Exiting Iraq with honor and avoiding the wider war for which the neocons are even now scheming is the first duty of patriots.

COPYRIGHT CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.




Kerry, it seems, is more of a hawk than he is portrayed by the Bushistas. I will support him to save the Supreme Court from the Fundies and for the environment, but I hope he doesn't take us down the same road that Bush has started.

Lieberman, Edwards, Bayh, and other Democrats are also hawkish.

Last edited by DaveSZ on Apr-23-2004 at 09:32

Old Post Apr-23-2004 09:09 
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

They won't form their own party because if they did they'd never win anything.

Old Post Apr-23-2004 10:45 
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arctic
Teh Pwn



Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Re: Neocons: Going Back Where They Came From

quote:
Originally posted by DaveSZ
FFS, just let these guys form their own little party.

Kerry, it seems, is more of a hawk than he is portrayed by the Bushistas. I will support him to save the Supreme Court from the Fundies and for the environment, but I hope he doesn't take us down the same road that Bush has started.

Lieberman, Edwards, Bayh, and other Democrats are also hawkish.


Methinks we have a closet Kucinich supporter on our hands. In all seriousness, if you were looking for a non-Hawkish democrat, then why didn't you jump on the Kucinich or Dean bandwagon from day one? He's (Kucinich) the only true liberal in the Democratic race - which, come to think of it, probably makes him unelectable in the current US political climate.

That being said, I still hold out some hope for Kerry, as he himself has been to war, and knows what it's actually like to be involved in one. An experience like that would certainly make me think twice before getting involved in another conflict.


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Old Post Apr-23-2004 10:55  Australia
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

honestly as a self proclaimed neoconservative I think this is dribble. Its simply old-conservative slander to disenfranchise people from the neo viewpoint.

Neoconservative have not abandoned Iraq (I think everyone else has, or is trying to though ). They are and have stood firm on the issue for the past 15 or more years.

Yes, neo-conservatives are liberal at heart, this might be the reason that Kristol favors Kerry over Buchanan, not because he believes Israel is before all else

Pat Buchanan just got too emotional in this peice and seems to be talking out of his ass and only slander, I'm suprised that any newspaper actually published this worthless piece - oh wait they didn't.


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Old Post Apr-23-2004 18:47  Israel
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

Not gonna happen.
The political Chinese checkers board is way to F**ked up right now.
Buchanan is steadfast, but will succomb to the evolution of the species.
...and Kerry ain't it. The man is a political Frankenstein.
Buchanan is right about that.

Old Post Apr-23-2004 19:30  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
Not gonna happen.
The political Chinese checkers board is way to F**ked up right now.
Buchanan is steadfast, but will succomb to the evolution of the species.
...and Kerry ain't it. The man is a political Frankenstein.
Buchanan is right about that.



Here's my prediction why Kerry won't win: His wife.

You can't have a man who choses the lead the USA and his wife is the stronger one in the pair. The partner always has to be the weaker party of the pair or else people are going to sense it and not vote him in. Presidents need to portray conflict, and getting bitch-slapped by Ms. Heinz is no way to do that


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Old Post Apr-23-2004 19:54  Israel
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Here's my prediction why Kerry won't win: His wife.

You can't have a man who choses the lead the USA and his wife is the stronger one in the pair. The partner always has to be the weaker party of the pair or else people are going to sense it and not vote him in. Presidents need to portray conflict, and getting bitch-slapped by Ms. Heinz is no way to do that


Hillary Clinton anyone?


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Old Post Apr-23-2004 20:48  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Hillary Clinton anyone?


In all fairness, no.

Admittedly she was a strong women. But Bill clearly wore the pants of the relationship (I mean the guy cheated on her with the ugliest, dumbest chick around and got away with it, slick!), especially while he was in office.

Certainly before Clinton was elected, and re-elected she wasn't such an imposing character either. Seems like her fuel came direct from the definition of "is".


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Old Post Apr-23-2004 21:02  Israel
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arctic
Teh Pwn



Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Australia

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Here's my prediction why Kerry won't win: His wife.

You can't have a man who choses the lead the USA and his wife is the stronger one in the pair. The partner always has to be the weaker party of the pair or else people are going to sense it and not vote him in. Presidents need to portray conflict, and getting bitch-slapped by Ms. Heinz is no way to do that


Are you serious? Come on, I've heard a lot of bizarre 'why Kerry wont win!' theories floating around - but this takes the cake.

Maybe American politics is so far removed from Australian politics so as to make me utterly out of touch - but do people actually give a shit about a candidates wife? I mean, are people seriously less likely to vote for someone because their wife has strong opinions?


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Old Post Apr-24-2004 04:38  Australia
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by arctic
Are you serious? Come on, I've heard a lot of bizarre 'why Kerry wont win!' theories floating around - but this takes the cake.

Maybe American politics is so far removed from Australian politics so as to make me utterly out of touch - but do people actually give a shit about a candidates wife? I mean, are people seriously less likely to vote for someone because their wife has strong opinions?


He was just F**kin around. He wasn't serious.

Old Post Apr-24-2004 05:06  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by arctic
Are you serious? Come on, I've heard a lot of bizarre 'why Kerry wont win!' theories floating around - but this takes the cake.

Maybe American politics is so far removed from Australian politics so as to make me utterly out of touch - but do people actually give a shit about a candidates wife? I mean, are people seriously less likely to vote for someone because their wife has strong opinions?


No, its not a serious theory. But a nice observation I think.

Tell you the truth - I think the fact that his wife brings in the pork, and even more importantly that Kerry was a divorcee carries more weight than the wife being stronger.

Still she is getting more airtime than him, which I think is a bad thing for a prez canidate


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Old Post Apr-24-2004 06:20  Israel
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Originally posted by Arbiter
They won't form their own party because if they did they'd never win anything.



I know. That's why they have to cling to one of the two major parties.




quote:

It's beyond me why so many American Rightists stubbornly stand behind Neoconservatives when there are so many genuinely American and genuinely Conservative alternatives in the GOP.


I believe the reason why so many continue to stand by them is because their media sources, Fox News, RW talk radio, continue to frame the neoconservative agenda as the ideal foreign policy. Their media shills, with the possible exception of Bill O Reilly, also simply have too much pride to admit they may have been wrong about some of the reasons for going to war in Iraq.



quote:
Originally posted by arctic
Methinks we have a closet Kucinich supporter on our hands. In all seriousness, if you were looking for a non-Hawkish democrat, then why didn't you jump on the Kucinich or Dean bandwagon from day one? He's (Kucinich) the only true liberal in the Democratic race - which, come to think of it, probably makes him unelectable in the current US political climate.

That being said, I still hold out some hope for Kerry, as he himself has been to war, and knows what it's actually like to be involved in one. An experience like that would certainly make me think twice before getting involved in another conflict.


I agree with Kucinich on some issues, but disagree with him on others. Like Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul on the right, he is unafraid to speak the truth about what is really going on with our government.

Essentially I want someone who is liberal on social issues, strong on defense, but not a neoconservative.

That's why I supported General Clark initially, but he endorsed Kerry after he lost in the primaries and is now speaking for him. Hopefully he'll get to have a position in a potential Kerry cabinet where he can be the chief foreign policy advisor to Kerry.

Old Post Apr-24-2004 06:32 
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