in the US you have to be 21 to drink alchol (and it is actually enforced unlike most eurpean countries where its not), but 18 to kill people in Iraq. In canada you responsible enought to vote at 18, but must be 19 to buy a lighter....

sweden is quite stric on this too (18 for most things), but most other european countries (except norway and perhaps some more..) have much less strict laws, for example in denmark you can be 15 and buy alcohol legally (and much lower illegally ).

obviously people in those countries with lower age limits drink more, but they drink "better" imo, they kinda know how to handle it, while in for example canada they suck at handeling alcohol.

so whats your thoughts on age limits? good/bad? lower/higher?

Its a stupid law.

Depends on the culture. In Europe where drinking is part of "normal" culture, not something you do to get trashed (or at least as much as it is in the US), there's no problem with not having an enforced drinking age. At the extreme, the Netherlands allows you to do pretty much anything you want, but culturally and socially its citizens are equpped to handle that sort of freedom and the country doesn't revert to chaos because of it. In the US, where getting drunk/high is an almost universal goal especially with younger people, not having an age limit on alcohol would have some serious consequences. I love the US, don't get me wrong, but we're just not the type of culture that could handle no age restrictions, at least not at this point. I'd like to say that will change, but I don't see that happening soon.

Yeah, but in Germany you have to be 18 to get a driver's license, whereas in the States you only need to be 16 (in most states at least). You lose some, you win some imo.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Depends on the culture. In Europe where drinking is part of "normal" culture, not something you do to get trashed (or at least as much as it is in the US), there's no problem with not having an enforced drinking age. At the extreme, the Netherlands allows you to do pretty much anything you want, but culturally and socially its citizens are equpped to handle that sort of freedom and the country doesn't revert to chaos because of it. In the US, where getting drunk/high is an almost universal goal especially with younger people, not having an age limit on alcohol would have some serious consequences. I love the US, don't get me wrong, but we're just not the type of culture that could handle no age restrictions, at least not at this point. I'd like to say that will change, but I don't see that happening soon.

yeah i agree with that, definitely a big different in the drinking culture... but where does it come from? i mean, perhaps it is because of all the restrictions that young people feel that when they have done all the efforts to get some alcohol and have the possiblity to use it, they must get trashed big time.

So my theory is that these kinds of laws actually worsen the drinking culture...

Perhaps a 16 or 15 limit in bars/resturants/home and a 20 limit to actually buy things in stores and drink yourself would make sense?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew yeah i agree with that, definitely a big different in the drinking culture... but where does it come from? i mean, perhaps it is because of all the restrictions that young people feel that when they have done all the efforts to get some alcohol and have the possiblity to use it, they must get trashed big time.

I think it is some how intertwined (or explained best) by observing in the college/university experience of Americans vs the college/university expereince of Europeans.

Lets just say, I can't imagine Animal House happening with students of the École Polytechnique in Paris.

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So my theory is that these kinds of laws actually worsen the drinking culture...

Try extending this to all laws than in general. Creating a law puts the responsibility on the goverment and the overall 'society' instead of from the individual and their cliches (smaller society).

I read a good article for instance in last months (or was it this months?) Wired Magazine about a road architecht from the Netherlands. What he found out is that removing all the 'safeties' of a road, such as a curb to differentiate between street and sidewalk, the median seperating line (the line between the lanes of traffic), removing cross-walks for pedetrains, and removing wanring signs, that drivers actually became much more responsible, more aware, and better drivers in general in the certain areas of road which he designed (I can source you specifcally if you want.. just say so).

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Perhaps a 16 or 15 limit in bars/resturants/home and a 20 limit to actually buy things in stores and drink yourself would make sense?

Good idea, if one were to approach it with logic that is.

Another one is simply to lower the drinking age and raise the driving age like in most Europe. That way teens know their limit before they get the keys to the car, not after.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I read a good article for instance in last months (or was it this months?) ... (I can source you specifcally if you want.. just say so).

Apparently it was this month's.

Read if for yourselves, good read. Interesting new perspective and one that challenges the status quo:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I think it is some how intertwined (or explained best) by observing in the college/university experience of Americans vs the college/university expereince of Europeans. Lets just say, I can't imagine Animal House happening with students of the École Polytechnique in Paris.

yeah, american collage/uni drinking cutlure is crazy!!! haha

but i think this also pretty much agrees with my theory, this is the time when most n american kids get total freedom from their parents, and when they do, they do all the bad stuff that they werent alloud to before.

quote:

Try extending this to all laws than in general. Creating a law puts the responsibility on the goverment and the overall 'society' instead of from the individual and their cliches (smaller society). I read a good article for instance in last months (or was it this months?) Wired Magazine about a road architecht from the Netherlands. What he found out is that removing all the 'safeties' of a road, such as a curb to differentiate between street and sidewalk, the median seperating line (the line between the lanes of traffic), removing cross-walks for pedetrains, and removing wanring signs, that drivers actually became much more responsible, more aware, and better drivers in general in the certain areas of road which he designed (I can source you specifcally if you want.. just say so).

yeah i think this is very true. the north american culture (at least the Ontario cutlure) doesn promote personal responsibility at all. there is laws and restrictions for everything, things that i have never seen a problem with in sweden.

quote:

Good idea, if one were to approach it with logic that is. Another one is simply to lower the drinking age and raise the driving age like in most Europe. That way teens know their limit before they get the keys to the car, not after.

true, north americans are soooo much more dependent on their cars tho (due to culutre / lack of public transit).

its scary how much i agreed with you in this post really

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew yeah, american collage/uni drinking cutlure is crazy!!! haha but i think this also pretty much agrees with my theory, this is the time when most n american kids get total freedom from their parents, and when they do, they do all the bad stuff that they werent alloud to before.

Well I don't think it agrees necessarily with your theory as the kids still break the law in college (drinking in 18 is still illegal, just as it was in high school at 16...). The laws are still there, simply their only social enforcer, which I'm assuming is for American children their parents, is absent so their is no consequences.

The whole parenting relationship in the USA is a bit awkward... but I don't want to get into that as I wouldn't know where to start an argument....

quote:

yeah i think this is very true. the north american culture (at least the Ontario cutlure) doesn promote personal responsibility at all. there is laws and restrictions for everything, things that i have never seen a problem with in sweden.

Yea, this is why I like Texas a lot, they basically give you a lot more freedom than other states (for instance if you are under 21 you can still drink in bars and restaurants if your parents are around), they do less regulating. Don't be mistaken they are still America - they have a lot of dumb rules (ever heard of a "dry county?"), but for the most part I find their "government get out of my life" attitude very inspiring in a sense.

The more rural you get in Texas though it seems the less their are laws or the laws are enforced (you can go speeding to blazes in rural Texas and slower cars will even pull off to the side to let you pass as you approach them, cops don't care much since everyone does it).

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true, north americans are soooo much more dependent on their cars tho (due to culutre / lack of public transit).

See, I don't think that culture is the cause of this, I beleive culture is a result of it. The cause, as I mentioned in another thread is simply that Europe is "old" and America is "new". Therefore USA cities are wide, spread-out, and Europeans cramped, medival narrow-streets, high-desnity etc. You will find that in the "older" American cities, or the ones that are dense (i.e. New York) there is good public transport.

The only way public transport can work is in dense areas. But because in America land and houses are cheap, everybody wants their one acre, their nice big house, instead of some cramped apartment on the 3rd floor, and simply since everything is wide and spread out, it makes sense to use mass-individual transportation, i.e. cars. If you use a car in America you are rewarded (no waits, easy access, fast, lots off parking).

In Europe the city-planning is simply different, if you use a car you are punished (expensive, not enough roads, takes hours to find a parking spot, costs a ton of money to park, etc...). From the enviroment that these societies come out of their culture than reflects the optimal result. In the USA car = good (because this is the reality of the environment), in Europe public transport / walking = good (again because of the reality of their environment).

But returning from the tanget and combining what you said about how North American culture doesn't have a huge notion of personal responsibility, it would be curious to see if the Dutch road engineer's ideas about traffic would apply in the USA culture. Because I am suspicious such things might only work in Europe.

quote:

its scary how much i agreed with you in this post really

Stop flirting with me, I've tried to make it clear to you on several occasions now, I'm not a goat, so drop it.

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quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew its scary how much i agreed with you in this post really

The horror continues - I find myself agreeing with him in this thread as well. I did manage to find one point of disagreement though:

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus The only way public transport can work is in dense areas.

In Europe public transport works excellent in the country side too. No matter where you want to go and where you come from, you can find buses that take you there. In Europe large parts of the old population are quite active and therefore use and need buses. Maybe that's a reason why there's a difference.
I think that you are nearer the truth when you state that in the US you are rewarded for having a car, whereas in Europe you are punished. But density is not a prerequisite for public transport to be a good idea.

On the main topic: Why drinking under the age of 21 is not allowed in the US - but driving is. Couldn't the reason by religious, as drinking is seen as a sin (also among Europeans) whereas driving (even if it imposes dangers on others) is not?

I think the reason drinking and driving ages are different is because they themselves are vastly different. One gives you access to transportation, which at 16 is important because many are getting jobs for the first times, or find themselves in situations where transportation is important. However, having access to drinking really doesn't provide the person with any real "life gain." Being able to drink isn't going to get you to a job or school or allow you to be more productive. Many people would argue the contrary. Much like tobacco (which is 18 for some reason), alcohol is a "luxury" item.

I'm really not sure what to do in order to change the American culture to one in which alcohol is not abused by the young. It seems so ingrained in our culture to get trashed and party, that I'm not sure what would change it. I do agree that parents have a big role in this, as many parents give horrible examples in the responsible use of alcohol with their actions and stories from "when they were young." I honestly think this country would do much better with leaglizing pot then lowering the drinking age because of the mystique and fear that surrounds pot but is absent when talking about alcohol. Even tobacco is more respected for what can happen when abused and its responsible use than alcohol is in this country.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Lets just say, I can't imagine Animal House happening with students of the École Polytechnique in Paris.

Actually exactly when you were writing that(4.30am here, 9am lectures today too ) I just got back from an ace night out (for the pic of STFU folks I could post emm if you like lol) with some french guys and girls (École students too) and they can hold their own in the drinking stakes(comming from a scotsman btw!)

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Last edited by Dervish on Dec-10-2004 at 14:13