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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: hey, philosophical question here. 1. Is murder wrong? Why or why not? 2. Isn't murder just an example of Natural Selection? If so, why is it wrong? or why is it right? 2. Is abortion wrong? Why or why not? 3. Is abortion just an example of Natural Selection? Why or why not? 4. If it is an example of Natural Selection, it definatly, in a huge percentage of cases, is not carried out as a means to survive, i.e. hunting prey, dying off because of change in enviroment. its carried out usually just because the mother doesnt want to take responsibility for her mistake. or the father doesnt and pressures the mother. Your thoughts?

1 - Yes (cos we are sentient creatures, murder is not neccessary for food or survival unless the person you kill is trying to kill you but then that would not be technically murder and also we are apparently civilised)
2 - No (its not natural to kill unless it is for food or survival)
3 - No (at the stage you can abort a fetus it is not a sentient creature)
4 - Abortion is not a natural process therefore it is not an example of natural selection
5 - See above (and yes, abortion is when the mother or father dont want a kid)

Neither question number 1 nor the second question number 2 can be labelled as right or wrong that simply.

edit: and they're not related to natural selection either.

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Originally posted by George Smiley 1 - Yes (cos we are sentient creatures, murder is not neccessary for food or survival unless the person you kill is trying to kill you but then that would not be technically murder and also we are apparently civilised) 3 - No (at the stage you can abort a fetus it is not a sentient creature)

Not a whole lot of "why" in these explanations IMO. They just beg the question as to why sentient creatures shouldn't kill for reasons other than food or survival?
I would say that murder is wrong, because the conviction that it is very unlikely to happen to the individual is essential for the pool of individuals to constitute a society. As to why a society is a good thing, I guess that's a circular question as good and bad are concepts defined by society.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Not a whole lot of "why" in these explanations IMO. They just beg the question as to why sentient creatures shouldn't kill for reasons other than food or survival? I would say that murder is wrong, because the conviction that it is very unlikely to happen to the individual is essential for the pool of individuals to constitute a society. As to why a society is a good thing, I guess that's a circular question as good and bad are concepts defined by society.

Well the 'sentient' bit of my sentence relates to what you just said, and the 'not killing other than for food or survival' simply mirrors other species in nature (ie none of them kill just for the hell of it so no reason we should)

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Originally posted by George Smiley 1 - Yes (cos we are sentient creatures, murder is not neccessary for food or survival unless the person you kill is trying to kill you but then that would not be technically murder and also we are apparently civilised) 2 - No (its not natural to kill unless it is for food or survival) 3 - No (at the stage you can abort a fetus it is not a sentient creature) 4 - Abortion is not a natural process therefore it is not an example of natural selection 5 - See above (and yes, abortion is when the mother or father dont want a kid)

concerning your answer to #1. the reasons for murder always stem to natural mean like in the wild. in war, your "tribe" is fighting against the other "tribe" for control of some territory, just like gorilla groups do in the jungles. or, your wife is having an affair. your manhood has just been violated. another male is wooing your mate. you kill him in a jealous rage. just as animals in the wild fight for a mate.

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: concerning your answer to #1. the reasons for murder always stem to natural mean like in the wild. in war, your "tribe" is fighting against the other "tribe" for control of some territory, just like gorilla groups do in the jungles. or, your wife is having an affair. your manhood has just been violated. another male is wooing your mate. you kill him in a jealous rage. just as animals in the wild fight for a mate.

No because in the wild, it is neccessary to do what you describe above either to survive as an individual, or to survive as a species. That does not happen in humanity as anyone can have sex with anyone (how many fat ugly men do you see with pretty women?!) and murder is not neccessary for survival (jealousy is not a natural emotion)

Isn't it true that the only species in the universe that kills for pleasure, for mental reasons, for greed or any other reason "OTHER" than for food and/or survival is the human being?

Or am i wrong?

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Originally posted by tiesto14 Isn't it true that the only species in the universe that kills for pleasure, for mental reasons, for greed or any other reason "OTHER" than for food and/or survival is the human being? Or am i wrong?

Cats?

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Originally posted by George Smiley No because in the wild, it is neccessary to do what you describe above either to survive as an individual, or to survive as a species. That does not happen in humanity as anyone can have sex with anyone (how many fat ugly men do you see with pretty women?!) and murder is not neccessary for survival (jealousy is not a natural emotion)

let me ask you. are u an evolutionist?

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: let me ask you. are u an evolutionist?

Yes why? Do the questions posed in your original post set us all up for a comprehensive argument for creationism or something?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Yes why? Do the questions posed in your original post set us all up for a comprehensive argument for creationism or something?

talking philosophy here

as an evolutionist, are you saying humans are different from animals? are we not animals, or are we set apart from them?

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