Knock Knock!
Who's there?
God.
God who?
Exactly.

Now. I don't mean that God doesn't exist. I don't actually know for sure. We were talking about evolution and creationism in my Ancient Civ class today and obviously, there were clashes of opinion on this topic . I mainly listened for the first part of the debate; taking both arguments into consideration. The one side (creationism) believes that God created Man, the Earth and its Universe. And that there is a God who governs above us in the Heavens, that we have a Soul that will go to either Heaven or Hell (Purgatory too, if you'd like) when our life on Earth comes to an end. They believe that has only existed for about 4200 years (this number may be wrong, but somewhere around there) and that we originated from a single pair of people, Adam and Eve.
-I'm sure you guys know this, so I'll move on-

Evolutionists believe that the Earth was basically an accident. The Big Bang, they call it. According to the Big Bang theory, our universe came into being in a violent explosion. The wake of the explosion left the universe extremely hot even though its size was small than an atom. This was only for a short time, and in just three minutes, the universe had expanded light years across the Universe and its temperature fell below 1 billion degrees Celcius. Fifteen billion years later the Universe formed into what we see it as today -- although the exact amount of time is still the source of debate among astronomers. They believe that the Universe is still expanding, but at slower rate.

Those are the extreme sides of the arguments, there were some different opinions in there as well.
So I was thinking. How in the hell are we supposed to know? I used to not give Creationism the time of day, and I still don't but the idea that God exists isn't so laughable anymore. But then again, I can't discount Evolution, because there is so much proof, so ultimately I'm stuck on the fence, right? Today I get pretty stoned and came across an epiphany. What if God did have a hand in all this? But not like the Bible says, naturally. IMO the Bible is a story book to confuse the ignorant a few thousand years ago. But supposing that God created this Universe, that it was Him that created the Big Bang. And he's just let us evolve from the sea. Simple enough explanation, but I just hadn't thought about it before.
That leaves me somewhere in the middle.. so I'm still on the fence . I still find it difficult to believe in God. It's just such absurdly abstract idea.. what is He? Some benevolent (malevolent?) force that stares down at us constantly, regarding every single human on the planet, recording everything you do? Whew. That's a tall order for me to take down. On the other end of the spectrum, Evolution is just as crazy as its counterpart. To believe that there were so many coincidences that occurred at the exact moment to create the Big Bang. And that no life even existed on what was a barren rock in some wing of an endless Universe for billions of years.
So what's beyond what we can't get by? Light years and light years away in distant galaxies that haven't been fathomed yet. Alien life? What if God decided to play God more than once? What if we're actually in one of His old trunks in His attic, the darkness we see is just the lid of a box. Hehe. But if there is life on distand planets, just how far along are they? It's very possible that they are millions of years ahead of us.. but what if they're still banging rocks together? You can never know, I suppose.. unless you live south of the Mason-Dixon.. they seem to see them all the time.

Anyways.. I've bantered for long enough.. for those of you who actually read this, what do you think? I'm sure that everyone has an opinion on this.

regards

___________________
Wave is to particle as zero is to one as bagpipes are to modem noises.

Last edited by {b.s.e.} on Dec-05-2001 at 00:18

Hey BSE, this is very interesting..

first let me say, I always enjoy your posts, they have substance, they are worth reading.

I'm tired of scrolling through the same stuff: Oakenfold sucks, what's your favorite trance track, hey look at my rave pics... bleh..

let's have some real discussion on here.
your post the other day about the scene was an interesting one as well..

but, i digress.

on to my opionion on your post.

I am very much like you. I used to be an atheist, then an agnostic, cuz I just don't know.

This is my opinion, based on my very limited experience of the world:

God is a concept, invented by the human conciousness, just like love or hate or jealousy. God didn't create us, we created him!

our minds all know worldwide there is something out there, something responsible for all this. or maybe we just want to believe that. maybe we need to. we need to know that when we die, and have a lived a good life, we will go to heaven for our sacrifices. and we need to know that when the bad people die, they will go to hell for their evil ways.

so people started to get together with this knowledge, this feeling they had inside. they wrote it down in a book called the bible, and started telling other people. soon it was a way of life.

I don't believe the 10 commandments were written on a piece of stone though. I believe that they were created from years of people just using their own common sense. it's humanity shining through.

people in other places wrote other books, slightly different, like the koran for example.

that's why we have all these different religions.

everybody must follow their own path. I myself believe many things from many religions, but none from all, i'm not so naive to think that I can find the answer to life in a book. I know what being a good person is, the answer comes from within.

I call myself a polytheist for this reason.

quote:

They believe that the Universe is still expanding, but at slower rate.

once the expansion eventually comes to a hault, the gravitiy is going to pull all the matter back towards the center of the universe.. but this will be in billions of years of coarse..

as for me, i am athiest, however i dont dont disprove of anyone for thier religious beleifs, so dont bother me and i wont bother you

i'm interested to see what others are going to have to say..

___________________

ah, the theory of the oscillating universe, I have heard that one.
I don't believe it.
I believe it is going to keep expanding forever.

I read a book called The Life Era by eric chaisson.

his view is that there were 3 stages to the universe, and 2 critical changes.

the first stage is the Energy Era, where energy ruled the universe, there was no matter, and only energy compressed into a small space. this progressed for millions of years, the energy slowing down and creating matter.

at a critcal point, the energy was no longer dominate, and it was the matter that was now controlling, through forces of gravity forming celestial bodies.

this is the Matter Era. gravity controls energy, blackholes bend light, etc.

There is another transition now. Life arises. this is a CRITICAL development, unheard of throught the BILLIONS of years in the universe. we are only on the very cusp of this era. now WE are controlling both matter and energy.

this is the life era. it has just started. on a cosmic scale we have been on this planet for a tiny little sliver of time, we are so isignigant. we are the first of the life era. what are we going to do with it?

as always, this is only an opinion, about the only thing I know for sure is that I don't know anything for sure!

quote:

On the other end of the spectrum, Evolution is just as crazy as its counterpart. To believe that there were so many coincidences that occurred at the exact moment to create the Big Bang.

well, since time is infinate, it was bound to happen some time or another and that some time was 15 billion years ago..

coincidences cannot be stopped when dealing with infinite time frames.. any thing that has a chance of happening, will happen at some point in time or another

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic ah, the theory of the oscillating universe, I have heard that one. I don't believe it. I believe it is going to keep expanding forever. I read a book called The Life Era by eric chaisson. his view is that there were 3 stages to the universe, and 2 critical changes. the first stage is the Energy Era, where energy ruled the universe, there was no matter, and only energy compressed into a small space. this progressed for millions of years, the energy slowing down and creating matter. at a critcal point, the energy was no longer dominate, and it was the matter that was now controlling, through forces of gravity forming celestial bodies. this is the Matter Era. gravity controls energy, blackholes bend light, etc. There is another transition now. Life arises. this is a CRITICAL development, unheard of throught the BILLIONS of years in the universe. we are only on the very cusp of this era. now WE are controlling both matter and energy. this is the life era. it has just started. on a cosmic scale we have been on this planet for a tiny little sliver of time, we are so isignigant. we are the first of the life era. what are we going to do with it? as always, this is only an opinion, about the only thing I know for sure is that I don't know anything for sure!

My my my..you dont sound like such a raving lunatic now do you?

alright, ill throw my crack pot, I have no reason to back it up beliefs in here, cuz while I dont have a defense now, ask me a question on my beliefs and I can defend that...you get my idea.

so Creation, or evolution. I dunno, is it really that clear cut? I mean, this is kind of a Western point of view that we are taking, but what do buddhist, and other non christian religions think on it. Myself, I dont follow any 1 religion, but I believe in more than 1 god, like the greeks, and the native american conception. I find these much more believeable than a single god theory.

So I find it quite believe able to say that the earth was created, but humans and other creatures like neanderthals are products of evolution.

___________________
Retired TA.

What the heck r u fools thinking. THere is a god and he is all knowing and all powerful. He was not created by human consciousness, he created us. See evolution, in my mind cannot prove so many things that it is not possible. See evolution's so called fossil gap, there is a gap in the fossil record, they still cannot prove why. Also the second law of thermodynamics (law that governs most things in the world) states that in a closed system, things run down rather than up. I mean evolution says that that the earth is going from chaos to order but this law contradicts it (look it up for yourself if you don't believe me), this law states that world is going from order to disorder which follows the creationist example. Yo, i could bitch and whine about all the unanswered questions i have about evolution and how many holes i think the theory has but i remind everyone that all beliefs are based on faith, believing in something, you cannot see and that is life. We all believe in things that we cannot see. So my question is, are you sure in what you believe in?

quote:

Originally posted by j_spot Myself, I dont follow any 1 religion, but I believe in more than 1 god, like the greeks, and the native american conception. I find these much more believable than a single god theory. So I find it quite believable to say that the earth was created, but humans and other creatures like neanderthals are products of evolution.

Hmm. Then what religion do you follow? Ancient Greek theology has been out of practice for a good 1500 years. 'These' make a very vague statement. I'm not disecting ya, I'm just curious. I could never understand polytheism.
Are you guys familiar with existensialism?
It's an insane philosophical theory that stresses the importance of individual existence and therefore, that individual's freedom and choice. THe main idea is that existence precedes essence. Heh. If you can understand that..They believe that there is no GOd and therefore no driving force that makes us act. So, they don't believe that there is a set fate for you uncover in the course of your life. Tehy believe that each human being makes decisions based on their nature.. that they are totallu free and responsible for what he makes of hiself/herself. They believe that there is no distinct realm of consciousness in which one could doubt the existence of an external object.. they assume that humans and things in general exist but that those things exterior to the individual have no meaning to us except when we create meaning through acting upon them *whew* I hate explaining this..
The best way to understand it is to picture that everyone and everything has their/its own, individual reality. And let's say that this reality is represented by an encompassing bubble. So the mouse by your hand has a tiny bubble surrounding it, right? It has no significance to you, and therefore doesn't necessarily exist until you interact with it. i.e. moving the pointer around on your screen. Make any sense? If you can understand it, it is a very interesting way to look at the world. THis approach usually appeals to Athiest.
If you are interested I suggest looking up Karl jaspers or Jean-Paul Sartre. And also the play 'Waiting for Godot'. Great work of art.
Anyways.. interesting posts so far guys!

keep em coming!

___________________
Wave is to particle as zero is to one as bagpipes are to modem noises.

quote:

I still find it difficult to believe in God. It's just such absurdly abstract idea.. what is He?

That's what I've been asking theists for years: still haven't got a straight response.

quote:

On the other end of the spectrum, Evolution is just as crazy as its counterpart. To believe that there were so many coincidences that occurred at the exact moment to create the Big Bang. And that no life even existed on what was a barren rock in some wing of an endless Universe for billions of years.

You misunderstand the laws of chance. To say that it took a lot of lucky coincidences for us to end up with a universe of this configuaration (i.e. congenial to the propogation of the human species) is correct in a way, but if we assume that the universe (as opposed to nothing) had to exist in some form then it doesn't seem quite so extraordinary.

Think of it like a golfer striking a ball down a fairway: he hits it, it lands 100 yards away. He runs after it, and when he finds it he exclaims: "oh my god! Out of all the blades of grass on this entire fairway it landed on that one! The odds must be millions to one! How incredible!"

Now, in this case, yes the golfer is correct: the odds of that ball landing on that blade of grass are incredibly small. However, to say that that occurance it is extrodinary is to miss the point: the ball had to land somewhere. And it's the same with the creation of the universe: religious types will tell you that the odds of humans coming into existance are 60 billion to one (or whatever), but they fail to understand the laws of truly large numbers and the anthropic principle (as detailed by Stephen Hawking in a Brief History of Time).

Thus, yes, the universe could have turned out slightly differently, in which case we wouldn't be here. At the same time though, we wouldn't know that we weren't here, and there would be some other sentient species on this planet saying "wow, the odds of us being here are 60 billion to one, we must be the creation of some divine being". But, of course, you can't factor these non-occurances into the equation: it's irrelevant. It only looks extraordinary from a human perspective because it's hard to comprehend the odds of us being here: yes, the odds against our existance are quite large, but any other eventuality - just like the golf ball landing on some other blade of grass - is just as small: probably smaller from an absolutist perspective.

I don't think I've explained this very well, but if you can get your head around it you will understand why the tremendous odds against the existence of humanity is no evidence for the existence of god. I suggest you pick up a copy of a Brief History of Time, because Mr Hawking (suprisingly ) explains it a lot better than I do.

quote:

our minds all know worldwide there is something out there, something responsible for all this. or maybe we just want to believe that. maybe we need to. we need to know that when we die, and have a lived a good life, we will go to heaven for our sacrifices. and we need to know that when the bad people die, they will go to hell for their evil ways.

'Nuff said.

quote:

everybody must follow their own path. I myself believe many things from many religions, but none from all, i'm not so naive to think that I can find the answer to life in a book. I know what being a good person is, the answer comes from within.

If everything, ultimately, comes from within, then why believe in a god at all? Why not just minimise pluralities (occam's razor) and believe in yourself?

quote:

once the expansion eventually comes to a hault, the gravitiy is going to pull all the matter back towards the center of the universe.. but this will be in billions of years of coarse..

Only if there's enough matter in the universe though. We can currently only account for around 5-10% of the matter needed for this oscilation (correct me if I'm wrong on this point) in which case we need to find a hell of a lot of matter from somewhere, otherwise the universe is just going to keep on expanding until all matter disipates.

One potential source is dark matter (the stuff, in conjunction with gravity, that's holding the galaxies etc together) but even if we take a liberal estimate as to how much of this dark-matter exists in the universe, we're still probably nowhere near the sort of universal mass we need for the universe to collapse back in upon itself again.

quote:

well, since time is infinate, it was bound to happen some time or another and that some time was 15 billion years ago.. coincidences cannot be stopped when dealing with infinite time frames.. any thing that has a chance of happening, will happen at some point in time or another

But time isn't infinate though.

Time is dependant upon energy/matter for its existance, and so before matter and energy came into being (however that may have been) 15 billion years ago, time, in this universe anyway, did not exist. Thus, in answer to the question "what happened before the big bang" the answer must necessarily be nothing. And that includes god - unless you want to argue that god is beyond the realms of this universe, in which case he has no say in how this universe operates in the first place.

quote:

So I find it quite believe able to say that the earth was created, but humans and other creatures like neanderthals are products of evolution.

So you believe that something as complex as a human being (or god for that matter) can just arise out of pure chance, but something as simple and explainable as this lump of rock on which we stand is the work of an omnipotent deity?

Using god to explain how things came to be is just adding in one unnecessary step: if we can assume that something as complex as god can just "exist" then why can't we just assume the same about the universe - which is a much more simple "being" (if you which to call it that) and, as we have eliminated one plurality (namely god) from our hypothesis if we assume that the universe is uncaused, doesn't that make the explanation - all other things being equal - necessarily better?

Anyways, enough ranting. I'll come back when I'm thinking more clearly.

Last edited by Renegade on Dec-05-2001 at 03:34

quote:

Originally posted by torontotrance What the heck r u fools thinking.

cmon, let's not drag this in the mud. none of us are fools. these are only opinions and observations, nobody is wrong or right, and nobodies theories can be proved or disproved.

quote:

THere is a god and he is all knowing and all powerful. He was not created by human consciousness, he created us. See evolution, in my mind cannot prove so many things that it is not possible. See evolution's so called fossil gap, there is a gap in the fossil record, they still cannot prove why.

the fossil gap? never heard of that. could you elaborate?

I do know that creationism can not explain the very existence of fossils, nowhere in the bible does it talk about giant lizards roaming the earth. I asked a pastor about that once, where the bones came from. he said they were demons of satan, masquerading as bones to trick us. sounds a little off to me.

quote:

Also the second law of thermodynamics (law that governs most things in the world) states that in a closed system, things run down rather than up. I mean evolution says that that the earth is going from chaos to order but this law contradicts it (look it up for yourself if you don't believe me), this law states that world is going from order to disorder which follows the creationist example.

the second law of thermodynamics states that all things tend toward chaos. evolution is not bringing us from chaos to order, but the other way around. look around is it not a crazy world out there? it's getting more and more chaotic each day.

quote:

Yo, i could bitch and whine about all the unanswered questions i have about evolution and how many holes i think the theory has but i remind everyone that all beliefs are based on faith, believing in something, you cannot see and that is life. We all believe in things that we cannot see. So my question is, are you sure in what you believe in? [/B]

not in the least bit.

cheers buddy, long live canada.

woohoo, we are cooking now, 2 replies while I was writing mine.

quote:

Yo, i could bitch and whine about all the unanswered questions i have about evolution and how many holes i think the theory has

well i wouldn't say that creationism has a rock solid story either..

so god took out his cookbook and begain making the world??
some earth here, water there, trees there

yah.. i guess that sounds about right

..and its quite possible that he could do it in seven days too

___________________

Last edited by randummboy on Dec-05-2001 at 03:26