There are far more words in the English language than any other, so in that regard I would have thought that the English language would be the most flexible at expressing fairly specific ideas? What exactly did your friend mean when he said "flexible" though?

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I wonder if he's referring to how certain words in other languages have some elaborate, almost poetic English translation. In any event, Renegade makes an interesting point.

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Originally posted by Renegade There are far more words in the English language than any other, so in that regard I would have thought that the English language would be the most flexible at expressing fairly specific ideas? What exactly did your friend mean when he said "flexible" though?

I think that the reason is the same as why French is preferred for diplomacy: There's fewer instances of sentences that can be interpreted in more than one ways, even if you know the semantics of each individual word. Don't hold me to it, though.

Heck, I'm on a break and I really should go back to work but you're talking about one of my favourite subjects here - language

Keep one thing in mind - we all say the same things, we just say them in different ways (i.e. different languages). For example, "I saw" in English. In Portuguese (which is grammatically a lot similar to French, which you mentioned), we could say "Eu vi (I went)" or "Eu via (I went)" (among other forms). We all know Romance languages (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian,...) have many time tenses.

"Eu vi" means "I saw". That simple. I saw a car would be "Eu vi um carro". But let's suppose it was a repeated action and in the past, you used to see a car. You'd then say "Eu via um carro (todo dia)" (I saw a car every day). This would give the impression that the Portuguese language is more flexible, wouldn't it? But no, it's not - in both languages, I said what I wanted to say, and both were able to give enough information so nothing was lost in translation. Even the word Brazilians brag about "Saudade" as being a word that only exists in Portuguese (which is false, because it exists in Romanian) could be translated into English as "the feeling of missing someone". Long? Yes, but I did say it. Not to mention the lack of gender in nouns is often annoying in English for us, but you guys find it also strange that we use "feminine" declensions for tables and "masculine" declensions for cars so...

Then, let's move on to Russian. Russian is a fun language, you see? While we, Romance-languages-speaking people like to conjugate verbs, they have this thing with nouns and adjectives and whatnot. It's called cases. For example.

Maria sees Vania
Vania sees Maria

Simple, isn't it? In order to reverse the action, you also reversed the words. In Russian, you could just do it like this:

Maria videt Vaniu
Mariu videt Vania

You could say Russian is more flexible because the words are able of "telling you" what their role in the sentence is (subject, object,...) but it doesn't mean that English can't express a similar thought - it's just a different mechanism.

Simply put, there's no such thing as "most difficult language", "most flexible language" or "easiest language to learn" in an objective basis. I did get easy examples, which might lead you to the question: what about philosophy?

Well, according to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, there is a systematic relationship between the grammatical categories of the language a person speaks and how that person both understands the world and behaves in it. For example, I perceive "light blue" and "dark blue" as blue, whereas a Russian-speaking individual would claim they're as different as red and pink. But the essence is the same. Every philosopher will express his/her thoughts in a way more suitable to what his mother language can express, but it has nothing to do with flexibility whatsoever.

I'd go on but I really can't. Hopefully this could be of some help. Sorry if it's too confusing. Bye lads.

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Originally posted by zarathustra A friend told me that languages such as Russian, Greek and French are more "flexible" than a language such as English when it comes to expressing ideas and therefore they are more suitable for studying philosophical works in.

The languages mentioned are complex in structure (Russian and Greek both have five cases and complex morphologies, while French has unpredictable, frozen forms (as does English) but has lost a lot of the Latin grammatical structures while developing its own tenses). English in constrast has largely lost is cases, has unpredictable forms, and is highly colloquial/slang, which makes it difficult for people to learn.

What your friend means is that a lot of meaning is expressed in the grammar of other languages that do not have a direct English translation. This provides considerable nuance to the meaning of non-English sentences, when such things as puns, homophones, rhyme, metre, metaphor, syntax and even spelling all have special, conveyed meaning in the source language, but are literally lost in translation. This is why one sentence in another language can require a paragraph of explanation to convey in English, and even then the sense is gone.

I totally concur with your friend that works of philosophy should be studied in their original, source language ("they are more suitable for studying philosophical works in") but these are often very difficult to master without years of investment.

(Start early).

Cheers,
-Noble

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interesting..

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The Decay of Chinese Culture: Nihilism Goes to China As any linguist will tell you, studying a language can generate significant insights into the nature of the culture and people using that language. In this case I’m referring to the Chinese written language. Whereas western culture and languages are digital and stemmed from a deconstructive worldview, the eastern languages, particularly Chinese which is the forerunner of most other east Asian languages such as Korean and Japanese, are self-contained and result from a fundamentally holistic worldview. In other words instead of breaking things down in order to understand them, they see things as static without further need for understanding. So it shouldn’t be surprising to find out that Chinese culture is extremely authoritarian – don’t question authority or the Party line – just do what you’re told. The implied duty of every child growing up in this culture is to obey authorities and conform to their expectations. In Chinese writing the meaning has to be extracted from the relationships between the component symbols, and because many Chinese characters have multiple meanings, context is imperative to communicate in any useful manner at all! This creates a language that is complex because it relies so heavily on a shared understanding of cultural history to create meaning in the sentence. Chinese also seems ‘poetic’ and ‘mystical’ because it is so fundamentally limited in its ability to convey a concise idea or concept unlike a letter based alphabet that can be used to create an almost infinite array of new words and concepts to communicate new ideas and thoughts.

http://www.counterorder.com/beyond.html

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Originally posted by tathi As any linguist will tell you, studying a language can generate significant insights into the nature of the culture and people using that language.

Oh my god is that an understatement.

I'll do better than that: you'll *never* understand the culture if you don't read/write/speak the language.

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Originally posted by tathi Whereas western culture and languages are digital and stemmed from a deconstructive worldview, the eastern languages, particularly Chinese which is the forerunner of most other east Asian languages such as Korean and Japanese...

Ah ah ah! The writing system is the precursor. Chinese and Japanese are as different as night and day.

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Originally posted by tathi In other words instead of breaking things down in order to understand them, they see things as static without further need for understanding. So it shouldn’t be surprising to find out that Chinese culture is extremely authoritarian – don’t question authority or the Party line – just do what you’re told. The implied duty of every child growing up in this culture is to obey authorities and conform to their expectations.

Oh, balls. Chinese language is very highly metaphorical, derived from archaic pictograms, and is full of life and with frequent reference to history. Why do you think a new translation of the classical Chinese texts come out every year? The language is so highly literary that it can be interpretted in multiple ways, resulting in the reader going away with a very private and personal interpretation based on his perspective in approaching the text (how's that for re-tell-ability?)

I love the saying that "Westerners are always looking ahead toward history; the Chinese are looking behind them for guidance forward."

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Originally posted by tathi In Chinese writing the meaning has to be extracted from the relationships between the component symbols, and because many Chinese characters have multiple meanings, context is imperative to communicate in any useful manner at all!

True, at a glance Chinese looks to be simple. In practice the grammar is complex, with a system of phonetic complement, ideographic and logographic meanings, and metaphorical structure. Characters can be used in the written language for their pictographic meaning or phonetic value, and two unrelated characters can be combined (either pictographically or phonetically) to produce a third meaning unrelated to the source two. Vocabulary in Chinese language is invented almost daily.

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Originally posted by tathi This creates a language that is complex because it relies so heavily on a shared understanding of cultural history to create meaning in the sentence.

Now you're getting it...

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Originally posted by tathi Chinese also seems ‘poetic’ and ‘mystical’ because it is so fundamentally limited in its ability to convey a concise idea or concept unlike a letter based alphabet...

GRrrr whoever wrote that article FAILS and gets a "F."

Talk about a Westerner forcing a piece of history into his own distorted context, so he can view it through his own irrelevant prism.

The language isn't a frozen piece of object history you can examine through a microscope -- it's a living, breathing entity, evolving daily and a reflection of the highly abstract nature of Chinese (nay, Asian) thought. It isn't "fundamentally limited in its ability to convey a concise idea" dear author of this article, it's a fundamental product of the people that invented it. News flash: only Westerners (of which I am one) want everything quantifiable and expressed in concrete, black and white terms (reduces their need to think). The author sees what he perceives as a flaw because he prefers another paradigm. Begone Western interloper! (the author of the article not Tathi).

On another note, there is considerable opposition in China to doing away with the traditional sign list (e.g., for ease of learning the language, increasing literacy, using a Western keyboard ) but they would view this as robbing them of a substantial component of their cultural heritage.

Cheers,
-Noble

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Last edited by TheNobleEu on Jun-29-2005 at 22:47

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Ah ah ah! The writing system is the precursor. Chinese and Japanese are as different as night and day.

Yes, they are different, but not in writing. Both of these languages have a pretty obsolete and archaic method of writing that is worse than the western way, whether you like it or not. I won't go into artistic view of the language because that really can't be objectively measured, but from the practical point of view, which is generally more important than the artistic one considering that language is more a method of communication than an artistic form, east asian languages are as inefficient as you can get. You can learn western alphabet in a few days, while learning chinese one takes years. Not to mention that you can't normally type it on a keyboard.

As for the chinese "don't question the authority and accept everything as it is" mentality, that is pretty much true, although less so now than many years ago. And it also explains why a country that had printing press, gunpowder, integrals, differentials, and compass while Europe's highest tech achievement were a crossbow and a lance was defeated by that same Europe only a couple of centuries later because of European tech superiority.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Yes, they are different, but not in writing.

They do differ in writing significantly. Refer to hiragana and katakana for further information (not close to what is used in China).

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Both of these languages have a pretty obsolete and archaic method of writing that is worse than the western way

I'm sorry, but if there is an "archaic" system, it would be a system of about 26 used in languages it wasn't originally designed for ("A" used to be the head of an "ox" upside down, but it doesn't matter nowadays because not all languages have this letter in the word "ox"), which claims to hold phonetic values when most times it fails to do so (e.g. "through", "though" and "tough" in English, specially because of all the different accents out there; vowel reduction in Portuguese and English; poor support for tonal languages, even if existant; and so on) and that has rather superfluous features such as capital letters. Not to mention cursive writing.

But it's not obsolete, as we're using it right now perfectly.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 east asian languages are as inefficient as you can get. You can learn western alphabet in a few days, while learning chinese one takes years.

Korean can be learned in one day, if this is what you mean by "efficient", being the most scientific alphabetical system ever designed - it does even show you how you say a word. Doubt it? See it for yourself.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 And it also explains why a country that had printing press, gunpowder, integrals, differentials, and compass while Europe's highest tech achievement were a crossbow and a lance was defeated by that same Europe only a couple of centuries later because of European tech superiority.

If only I had the time... come on, Tito, you're a smart guy, stop seeing things from an Eurocentric point of view. I know you can. (Hint: no one is "more advanced" or "technologically superior").

By the way, "they see things as static without further need for understanding"!? Did the person who wrote this even cared to do any reading or is he really just "guessing"?

Now I'm out, definately

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Yes, they are different, but not in writing.

Sorry, but they are different in writing.

Some sign forms are transferred in their basic structure but not always in their stroke count, and even then have different meaning in Japanese -- some forms are indeed frozen and present in both languages. But, and this is the important part, a reader of Mandarin could not on that understanding fluently read Japanese. The reason for this is simple: the languages belong to two completely different families.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Both of these languages have a pretty obsolete and archaic method of writing that is worse than the western way, whether you like it or not.

Whether I like it or not? Hmm. I'm not Chinese, but I am wrestling with learning the traditional characters. Would I rather not have them? No -- as these are an integral part of the culture, which was my point. So, whether you or I "like it" is irrelevant.

True, traditional sign forms make the language much more difficult to learn. I've read studies in Chinese Linguisitic and Language Pedagogy-Acquisition journals that literacy in children increases by around 30% in test groups that were taught Chinese according to Pinyin transliteration as opposed to being taught even in simplified characters.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I won't go into artistic view of the language because that really can't be objectively measured, but from the practical point of view, which is generally more important than the artistic one considering that language is more a method of communication than an artistic form,

Perhaps to your rather militant, microscopic view, but your mere opinion is up against some 4000 years of Asian tradition, where writing is itself a treasured art form. The Chinese codified it as a gentleman's devotion, one of the skills of the so-called Man-of-Letters (i.e., a Confucian scholar, requisite for civil service) and the Japanese codified it as an aspect of Zen Buddhism.

I don't imagine they would care would some kid in the West thinks of it.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 east asian languages are as inefficient as you can get.

Careful, you're approaching bigotry. And you of course are asserting this on your advanced knowledge of Asian languages?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 You can learn western alphabet in a few days, while learning chinese one takes years. Not to mention that you can't normally type it on a keyboard.

Ah, and these are univeral criteria for the status of 'important language' according to whom?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 As for the chinese "don't question the authority and accept everything as it is" mentality, that is pretty much true, although less so now than many years ago.

Yawn...

Edit: Lira, don't bother, you're wasting your time.

-Noble

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Last edited by TheNobleEu on Jun-30-2005 at 03:39

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Not to mention the lack of gender in nouns is often annoying in English for us, but you guys find it also strange that we use "feminine" declensions for tables and "masculine" declensions for cars so...

hmm, i wounder how they would do this if this was the case in a langage in a country where political correctness have gone to far - such as canada and to some extent sweden. I mean really, it would be sexist to speak pretty much?