I have looked on the web for information on a lot of questions I have, pretaining to why the U.S. has come to have an entangling alliance with Israel. I have not been satisfied with the sites I tried to gather information from, so I was wondering if you guys could help explain a few things to me.

1. Our country was founded and operated for a long time with the ideal of peaceful friendships with all, entangling alliances with none. Why have we developed an entangling alliance with Israel?

2. What benefits do we get out of this alliance?

3. Why is this alliance so strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans?

4. Does Israel have a right to land in the middle east?

___________________
Lost Souls

isnt it all because Jews basically run everything in America.. you abandon your Israeli alliance you lose your next election.

The democrats and the republicans seem to only be figureheads/puppets to the Jewish regime that really runs the show.

___________________
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

quote:

Originally posted by Dupz isnt it all because Jews basically run everything in America.. you abandon your Israeli alliance you lose your next election.

Such as? You do realize that the majority of Jews vote Democratic, don't you? There's a paradox.

quote:

The democrats and the republicans seem to only be figureheads/puppets to the Jewish regime that really runs the show.

Please. This just reeks of anti-semitism. What do you have against Jews anyway?

i think its because of halocaust and the jewish right to have their own country.

Right now Israel invests largely in the american stock markets especially in NYSE, so if the alliance will be broken, its gona be a bad day on wall street.

What above is said is true about that jews hold a lot of large businesses in america and the jewish population is very big in US which equal to votes.

Jews vote both republicans and democrats, and not just democrats. A large percentage of them voted for bush

Most Jews vote Democrat (usually 60%) and around 10% vote Republican, which leaves the remaining 30% to be fought over (and baring in mind Jews mainly live in states crucial for elections like in some swing states it means they are very high up in the priorities of both parties)

Add to that somke of the largest donations to both parties come from Jews means they have to be kept sweet.

Anyway, to answer the OPs questions...

1) The US wasn't really bothered about Israel until after the 1967 and 1973 wars when Israel kicked ass and America thought "hmmm...how bout a strong ally in the middle of all that oil then?"

2) You get to be high up on the terrorists hit list, nothing much else seeing as the Cold War ended, the US is now a Middle East power in its own right rendering the strategic importance of Israel at a little above zero

3) See first two paragraphs and add loony right wing fundamentalist radical (and any other words that also describe al-Qaida) evangelical Christians that make up the Christian right which in turn make up the core Republican vote (plus look at the track record of Presidents/politicians going against Israel - aint too good!) Plus support for Israel is part of American culture, a bit like getting drunk is part of British culture

4) In order to have any kind of rational debate over the US-Israel relationship I suggest you edit that question out of your post ASAP!!!

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings I have looked on the web for information on a lot of questions I have, pretaining to why the U.S. has come to have an entangling alliance with Israel. I have not been satisfied with the sites I tried to gather information from, so I was wondering if you guys could help explain a few things to me.

Well its a bunch a questions - if you looked at other sources and still haven't figured it out I doubt you'll find your answers here.

quote:

1. Our country was founded and operated for a long time with the ideal of peaceful friendships with all, entangling alliances with none. Why have we developed an entangling alliance with Israel?

Similar the reasons the USA has an 'entangling' relationship with the UK, EU, Australia, Mexico, Canada... I don't see their relationship as anything different. Those nations simply don't expierence such intense hatered from the Arab world.

quote:

2. What benefits do we get out of this alliance?

Many.

quote:

3. Why is this alliance so strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans?

Its not always. There are many demos and repubs that are very strong critics and opponents of this alliance. However, many support it because they see a beseached country with the same character, values, and demorcratic principles of the USA, being attakced by forces firstly of the Cold War (USSR proxies) and now by forces of terror. Both are the USA's common enemy.

It is vital for the USA's interest not to have had a Western democracy fall to the USA just as it is vital for the USA not to allow a western democracy to fall to terror.

I wouldn't say it is necessary for selfish political reasons. However if we were to look at such Jews traditionally where overwhelmingly democract. Since Bush the lines are evening more out and more Jews are becoming Republicans due to the decline of the demo party.

The republicans have their evanglisits however.

quote:

4. Does Israel have a right to land in the middle east?

Yes it has a right.

One might argue how comprehensive and just this right is, but it defintely has a right.

___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Many.

Gotta love the way you fail to name any!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Gotta love the way you fail to name any!

I've done it before in numerous thread, and as I mentioned they are many, and my time is not.

And as alluded to earliers, its like saying what benifits does the US recieve from allying with the UK?

___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I've done it before in numerous thread, and as I mentioned they are many, and my time is not. And as alluded to earliers, its like saying what benifits does the US recieve from allying with the UK?

Er...

They get an occupation force to take care of the South of Iraq

Edited to add:

You cant say "its like saying what benefits does the US recieve from allying with the UK" or France or anyone else for that matter cos they are completely different alliances. The US does not give the UK $5 billion every year for a start! Plus, the UK is America's poodle - we do what we are told, sir. With Israel the relationship is completely different. A great deal of people say that Israel controls American foreign policy and following the research I've just been doing on neoconservative foreign policy there is definately a good case to make for that being true. So the benefits to America for supporting Israel should be in proportion - ie America should be recieving a greater number of benefits than it does from its relationship with the UK - and can you honestly say that Israel even gives America [i]as much[i/] benefits as the UK, let alone much much much more benefits than America gets from the UK?

Last edited by George Smiley on Aug-16-2005 at 16:03

ehh this is bullshit you know the americans payed for the israilies to withdraw and now the israeli gov wants two billion more for the withdraw.

quote:

Originally posted by ilya49 ... and the jewish population is very big in US which equal to votes.

i wouldnt say that's true:

US population: 295.7 million
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...r/2119rank.html

US jewish population: 6.1 million
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...l/usjewpop.html

US muslim population: 2 million to 7 million depending on study
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pu...fe/immigrat.htm

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings 1. Our country was founded and operated for a long time with the ideal of peaceful friendships with all,

First mistake is this assumption -- you need to do some reading.

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings ...entangling alliances with none.

A Wilsonian illusion, that didn't last.

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings Why have we developed an entangling alliance with Israel?

The US is allied primarily with Israel in the Middle East because it feels it can identify moreso with the Israeli-Jewish experience than with that of the Arabs. Also because the Jews successfully integrated with the British and American cultures long before the problem of a state of Israel arose.

An element of racism is also to be noted, as well as common religious cause between Jew and Christian and bad blood between Christian and Muslim within the context of contention over the 'Holy Land' in the Middle Ages (we'll ignore that the Christians also went on Crusade against other Christians as well as the Jews during the Middle Ages for the purposes of this discussion).

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings 2. What benefits do we get out of this alliance? -- 3. Why is this alliance so strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans?

Good questions, but not politick to discuss here. You might want to browse through the mega Israeli-Palestine thread (warning: currently at 131 pages and mostly useless) for some ideas on the matter:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=247184

By way of more serious introduction, try to find a documentary called _The 50 Years War: Israel and the Arabs_ or perhaps the treatment in the CNN series _The Cold War_ at your local university AV center.

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings 4. Does Israel have a right to land in the middle east?

The answer will depend on the individual's religio-political perspective.

Israel's claim to the land is set on a biblical precedent and has arguments founded in the Jewish experience during the Holocaust (if you're an atheist, you will find this unconvincing).

Palestinian claim to the land is based on a Qur'anic precedent, their military conquest and residency of the area since the Middle Ages, and on the promises made to them for an autonomous country in exchange for their cooperation vis-a-vis the Nazis and the Young Turks during WWII (if you're an atheist, or of the opinion that the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence discussed nothing of the sort, you will find this unconvincing).

For a quick primer (which I have no interest in detailing further), read this thread:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=264113

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid ehh this is bullshit you know the americans payed for the israilies to withdraw and now the israeli gov wants two billion more for the withdraw.

3 billion, actually.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley The US does not give the UK $5 billion every year for a start! Plus, the UK is America's poodle - we do what we are told, sir.

This is silly. The Brits are up for kicking anyone's ass whenever, just ask them to (get drunk and) show up -- they'll come with centuries of street fighting experience. The above could only be uttered by someone not alive during the reign of Iron Maggie and the Falklands. Looking at it from sheer practicality, George would be stupid not to ask the Brits to back him.

Hell George even asked Canada to back him -- we didn't go along (officially, exactly), but he did try to assemble a fraternity of complicit warmongers, and who can blame him?

What an irony it is that everyone pins the bully, imperialist, and warmongering label on the USA when the Brits have been doing it longer, more efficiently, and with more success than any Western power on the planet. The UK taught the US almost everything it knows about war; if anyone's the warmonger, it ain't the US -- it's the UK.

In fact the UK has had more years of experience in war, imperialism, managing, and modernizing foreign populations than all the years the US has been in existence. The UK is an older-brother ally to the USA, with much to teach from its pre-WWI experiences in the Empire. Half the USA's problem is that it is such a poor student.

Where Sith Lords go, the USA is the apprentice. The Sith Master is laughing in the shadows as everyone picks on the apprentice's faults and inexperience.

Calling the Brits a lapdog is beyond absurdly laughable, and demonstrates ignorance of basic modern history. If you really wanna bash warmongering and meddling in foreign affairs, if you must cast mud, for gawd's sake have some aim!

Cheers,
-N

___________________

Join the campaign to ban political sigs in the Political Discussion / Debate forum!

Last edited by TheNobleEu on Aug-16-2005 at 22:15