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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 The GOP Senate has just killed the bill right down party lines to try and set up an independent commission, similar to the 9/11 Commission,

The 9/11 Omission Commission? That was about as independent as the Warren Commission. Heck, even conservative pundit Rush Limbaugh spoke out against that one.

And yeah, to keep it on topic - it's rather appalling if you ask me. These guys do anything and everything to avoid accountability. They may as well seal any and all documents concerning the Hurricane's aftermath (and their lack of preparedness for it) in the Reagan library - with all of the other files they don't want the public to have access to.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Last post for today, I promise. The GOP Senate has just killed the bill right down party lines to try and set up an independent commission, similar to the 9/11 Commission, to investigate what went wrong on all levels of government: Now why would Senate Republicans go off and do such a thing? Don't they want an independent looksee here? Do they really think the public won't get a slight bit pissed about their, err, umm, filibuster?

I don't blame them.
This Katrna Commission was to be modelled after the 9/11 Commission.
I know I mentioned this a couple days ago but no one wants a repeat of the 9/11 Commission fiasco...

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Sen. Clinton's "Katrina Commission" would be modeled after the "independent" 9/11 Commission. I can see it now: Democrat Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco, whose main imperative is covering up her own culpability, will be the next Jamie Gorelick; Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard, the local corrupt-o-crat who got his 15 minutes of fame on "Meet the Press" last week, will be the next Richard Ben-Veniste. And this time for "diversity," maybe they'll call on Randall "Black people are eating corpses…oh, never mind" Robinson and rapper Kanye "It's all about me" West to share their deep expertise. Despite the abject failures of local and state officials to prepare for the worst, abide by their own evacuation plans, maintain an effective police force, and crack down on looters, Sen. Clinton's commission would only examine the "adequacy of federal response efforts." Translation: Bash Bush.

>>Source<<

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you know...the Dems whined about this last week. political infighting

there will be an investigation and i cant wait.

speaking of which ...

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9/11 commissioners blast Katrina response They say government has failed to act on recommendations From David Ensor CNN Washington Bureau WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Members of the former 9/11 commission blasted Congress and the Bush administration Wednesday for inaction on some of its recommendations, which the former chairman said could have saved lives in Hurricane Katrina. "If Congress does not act, people will die -- I cannot put it more simply than that," said former New Jersey Gov. Thomas Kean, referring to what could happen in the next major disaster or terrorist attack. He said it was a "scandal" that more has not been done to improve the job of first responders in the four years since the terrorist attacks of September 2001. "Hurricane Katrina pointed out serious flaws in our emergency preparedness and response. And what is frustrating to us is that [these are] many of the same problems we saw in 9/11 and the response to that disaster," said Kean, a Republican The former commissioners, speaking to reporters at a press conference, called for Congress to take radio frequencies away from broadcasters and give them to first responders well before 2009, as is currently planned under law. They urged states and local governments to adopt incident command systems, making clear which agency is in charge, and said Congress should financially penalize states that do not do so. They also complained that reports the Department of Homeland Security should have delivered months ago on risk and vulnerability factors around the nation have yet to be completed. Tim Roemer, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana who served on the commission, said it was "inexcusable and unacceptable" that Congress has yet to enact some of the 9/11 recommendations that "could have made a difference" in Louisiana during the early days after the hurricane. Malfunctioning radios using different frequencies contributed to the high death toll in the World Trade Center buildings, and public safety officials in New Orleans have reported widespread communications problems as well. "Government has no higher responsibility than the defense of its people," Kean said, "so this ought to be at the top of the priority list." Opposition to giving the radio frequencies to first responders before 2009 has come from broadcasting companies, which had been given them for use during the transition to digital and high-definition television. The bipartisan 9/11 panel -- formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States -- released its final report in a nearly 570-page book in July 2004. Find this article at: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITIC...sion/index.html

gee Josh, wasn't their idea in the first place to homologate the mega bureaurocracy that they are complaining about now? i also remember the huge Congressional push for it too.

Last edited by Q5echo on Sep-15-2005 at 03:30

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I don't blame them. This Katrna Commission was to be modelled after the 9/11 Commission. I know I mentioned this a couple days ago but no one wants a repeat of the 9/11 Commission fiasco... >>Source<<

give me a fucking break. Did you read the GAO report on Blanco yet? Here, Conyers came out with this yesterday:

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*All necessary conditions for federal relief were met on August 28. Pursuant to Section 502 of the Stafford Act, "[t]he declaration of an emergency by the President makes Federal emergency assistance available," and the President made such a declaration on August 28. The public record indicates that several additional days passed before such assistance was actually made available to the State; *The Governor must make a timely request for such assistance, which meets the requirements of federal law. The report states that "[e]xcept to the extent that an emergency involves primarily Federal interests, both declarations of major disaster and declarations of emergency must be triggered by a request to the President from the Governor of the affected state"; *The Governor did indeed make such a request, which was both timely and in compliance with federal law. The report finds that "Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco requested by letter dated August 27, 2005...that the President declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period from August 26, 2005 and continuing pursuant to [applicable Federal statute]" and "Governor Blanco's August 27, 2005 request for an emergency declaration also included her determination...that `the incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of disaster." http://www.house.gov/judiciary_demo...portpr91305.pdf

Now I won't deny the fact that the 9/11 Commission had it's faults, but by and large it was a very well-run investigative machine with no political axe to grind. OTOH, you have GOPers wanting to run the investigation themselves - well fuck, who the hell do you think people are going to believe then?

You really think people want the GOP-run government to be in charge of fucking investigating itself? Are you being serious? Maybe that's why 76% of Americans want an independent investigation:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5091200668.html

Once again, the GOP is on the wrong side of the issue with the large majority of the people. First Social Security, then Iraq, then Schiavo - what else could the GOP be in the small minority on this year?

And Q5, I can't wait for an investigation either. The trouble is, it's not going to be nonpartisan, nor will it be independent at the time being. Just the way you like it, I'm sure.

The question remains, however - why would the GOP NOT want an independent council investigate this tragedy, and what ALL branches of government (local, state, federal) could have done differently?

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with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
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and stick pickles in my honker...

what are we really talking about here? i mean what was all the fuss about in the days following the storm. security, right? or lack thereof? needed supplies to the most desperate i.e. Superdome, Convention center? no one should disagree that the rescue efforts of people still trapped on their homes and the heroes involved in those thousands of airlifts were phenomonal.

that dumb **** turned down and didn't ask for Federal troops until Wednesday. she's regretted it ever since. there's video to prove it.
http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09...ncocnndaybreak/

don't fall for her spin about not wanting federal troops in the city arresting looters all the while saying that "when she asked the president for everything on Saturday, she thought that meant everything"

"NOT ONLY IS SHE A LIAR AND INCOMPETENT. SHE IS AN INCOMPETENT LIAR"

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Originally posted by Q5echo what are we really talking about here? i mean what was all the fuss about in the days following the storm. security, right? or lack thereof? needed supplies to the most desperate i.e. Superdome, Convention center? no one should disagree that the rescue efforts of people still trapped on their homes and the heroes involved in those thousands of airlifts were phenomonal. that dumb **** turned down and didn't ask for Federal troops until Wednesday. she's regretted it ever since. there's video to prove it. http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09...ncocnndaybreak/ don't fall for her spin about not wanting federal troops in the city arresting looters all the while saying that "when she asked the president for everything on Saturday, she thought that meant everything" "NOT ONLY IS SHE A LIAR AND INCOMPETENT. SHE IS AN INCOMPETENT LIAR"

Not simply security, but the complete botchup by FEMA to effectively respond to the crisis as pointed out by liberal and conservative news sources, and politicians. As for the request for national guard troops, while Blanco may not have specifically requested troops when talking to Bush, and instead asked for "everything" ... which of course does not consist of national guard troops, the governor of Mississippi and Louisiana requested troops through the normal chain of command as evidenced by the department of defense and General Honore:

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Q Just two quick ones. We understand that a total of about 30,000 Guard will be in the four states. You say 24,000 in Mississippi and Louisiana. How many of those in Mississippi and Louisiana will be police, military police? GEN. HONORÉ: Sir, I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I will defer to my good friend Steve Blum (Lieut. Gen. Steven Blum – Chief, National Guard Bureau), who has that. And I will follow up with you within a few minutes and get that to you. But there is a major effort in Louisiana for security-type forces. And I will tell you that the majority of them right now -- Louisiana has 4,700 of its own National Guard committed to that effort. And the majority of the force flow -- there will be 1,400 additional security forces in Louisiana today, with an additional 1,400 tomorrow are on that force flow buildup, as I gave it to you. But we will get that to you in detail within a few minutes, sir. It's fair to say the majority of the forces going to Louisiana are security-type forces, sir. MR. WHITMAN: All right. Let's go over here to Jamie and then over to -- (off mike). Q General, Jamie McIntyre from CNN. To what extent is this additional assistance you've outlined today a response to a request from the state governors in Louisiana, Mississippi? And if so, can you tell us when specifically you got that request? GEN. HONORÉ: Yes, sir. The process starts, sir, in this particular event, with a request Friday of last week, as the approximate date for defense coordinating offices to be established in Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. Those were established in those states over Friday and Saturday. Q Sir, I'm specifically interested in how soon after the hurricane hit and the extent of the damage became known did the governors request additional assistance above and beyond what they had requested before? GEN. HONORÉ: Sir, that started to happen on Saturday, as the hurricane was approaching, and was executed with the movement of my headquarters on Sunday to Mississippi, where we established a joint -- JTF headquarters here in Mississippi with a forward cell of the 5th United States Army in Louisiana. And on Sunday we established JTF-Katrina, with myself as the task force commander. And since that time, we've continued to flow naval air and Army helicopter support and other assets, as requested by the governor, through FEMA. And that is the process, and you know that works. The governor identified a requirement. It goes to FEMA. That requirement is sent to Northern Command, my boss, Admiral Keating, as parallel to General McNeill at Forces Command. And we have started to flow the forces to your region. Over. MR. DI RITA: You know -- it's Larry DiRita -- I think what people are interested in, if you know, is when specifically or if indeed did the governors specifically ask for additional security forces and when that might have been? And if you don't know that, we'll try and find it, but that would be -- I think that's a little more refined aspect of what the reporter's asking for. GEN. HONORÉ: Yeah, that was incremental. The security force piece was executed through a process called EMAC. That started on Sunday, a collaboration between the adjutant general and the National Guard Bureau to flow additional capabilities to Louisiana and to Mississippi. That flow started approximately around Sunday. Forces started moving once the eye of the hurricane had passed and we could start moving forces in and assist the states, Alabama pushed forces into Mississippi as well as forces from Texas started to flow into Louisiana, as well as other states. But that's the approximate phase of the operation. Again, that was executed through National Guard arrangements to move National Guard capability where it's needed. And that is what is happening, an extension of that, now. The DOD capability was based on requests that came from FEMA for additional ability to assist in search and rescue, and that was called a mission assignment. Those started on Sunday. And we were here on Sunday, and by Monday, the Bataan was present, as well as federal helicopters started arriving Monday to assist in the search and rescue and the sustainment operation, that that is the timeline as it was executed in the process. Any more specifics on that? Over. Q No, that's fine. http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2005...50901-3843.html

Ummm so let's see, the governors of the gulf states requested troops Saturday. Immediately before the hurricane hit, Blanco told Bush to send everything, when the lawlessness escalated out of control on Monday and Tuesday, despite the request for troops on Saturday, Blanco issued a specific request for troops to bush on Wednesday. So are state/local governments responsible for the incompetance of the federal agencies designed to deal with this crisis? Or should they always go straight to Bush for every single minutia? Or are the department of defense and Honore lying out of their asses?

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as you know, by law, Federalized Guard troops are very limited on what they can do in a SoE. the Stafford Act makes explicit terms of this. it was intended for the request of DOD level assistance of security force be seperate. hardly a "minutia" as you put it.

the President can, within the SoE, delegate the movement of any and all forces necessary to stage and act upon the SoE within Stafford Act guidelines. So, was the General "lying his ass off? no, he can't.
...doesn't have to.

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Originally posted by Q5echo as you know, by law, Federalized Guard troops are very limited on what they can do in a SoE. the Stafford Act makes explicit terms of this. it was intended for the request of DOD level assistance of security force be seperate. hardly a "minutia" as you put it. the President can, within the SoE, delegate the movement of any and all forces necessary to stage and act upon the SoE within Stafford Act guidelines. So, was the General "lying his ass off? no, he can't. ...doesn't have to.

Blanco invoked the Stafford Act in her letter to the President to declare a state of emergency on Saturday:

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Dear Mr. President: Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina. In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan. Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

Furthermore, it conflicts with the It also conflicts with the Homeland Security Department's own National Response Plan, the development of which was directed by the president (first line, page i) and released in December of 2004.
See the top of page 44 for these "guiding principles" for a "Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events":

*Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.

*Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.

*Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.


The governor requested troops on Saturday as confirmed by Honore. So why were there no troops?

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