St_Andrew was apparently surprised this week that the Intelligent Design debate has now come to Sweden, too

But I'd like to pose the general question of world trends -- is the world experiencing a backlash against liberalism and becoming more right-wing and conservative?

I could discuss how abortions are being restricted in Europe (Poland, Russia), or the fact that topless sunbathing and soft drugs were recently banned in Italy. I could talk about the Jackson "nipple" on TV that would have been no big deal in the US in the 80s and 90s (hell, there was a lot more nudity on public American TV back then).

But actually the example that's on my mind is... clubbing. It sounds unbelievable now, but as recently as 7-8 years ago, bouncers didn't check IDs in most big cities in America, and were nowhere as strict about policing drinking as they are now. In NYC, as Tiesto14 posted in the New York forum, a 13-year-old could get in a club, party and drink in the late 90s.

Not only is this unthinkable now (in fact there are witch-hunts regarding alcohol and "morality"), but when I was in Germany, I was stunned that I had to show my passport to get in a club, too! I thought at least Europe would be more relaxed - not now. German youth without an "age card" or proof of age were turned away.

Is the world placing tighter controls on all aspects of life and becoming more conservative?

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"The favorite American pastime is not baseball, it's moral crusades."

Not that I can speak on behalf of anyone outside Canada, but maybe the liberalism movement is starting to hit a morality ceiling?

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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
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Originally posted by HardTranceProd I could discuss how abortions are being restricted in Europe (Poland, Russia), or the fact that topless sunbathing and soft drugs were recently banned in Italy. I could talk about the Jackson "nipple" on TV that would have been no big deal in the US in the 80s and 90s (hell, there was a lot more nudity on public American TV back then).

Such as? Shakka Zulu?

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In NYC, as Tiesto14 posted in the New York forum, a 13-year-old could get in a club, party and drink in the late 90s.

I'm not sure what clubs you were going to, but I've certainly never seen a 13 year old in a club drinking. Not that I'd even want to see one. I'd probably turn around and leave.

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Not only is this unthinkable now (in fact there are witch-hunts regarding alcohol and "morality"), but when I was in Germany, I was stunned that I had to show my passport to get in a club, too!

Stunned that you had to show proper ID? Good grief.

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Is the world placing tighter controls on all aspects of life and becoming more conservative?

In all honesty, I don't think you've really brought up a conservative vs. liberal debate. Sounds more like anti-establishment thinking in general.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd ...or the fact that topless sunbathing and soft drugs were recently banned in Italy.

Woah! That's crazy, because we have a nude beach here in NJ. Right on sandy hook. I would never expect a european country to ban topless sunbathing!

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largely i believe its a product of nothing left to do.

for decades the US and Western Europe were paranoid over the Cold War, Nationalist tendencies and the lack of the internet.

now that everyone is connected, air travel mixes people with reckless abandon - now most of the Anglo world has nothing better to do that regulate what they can, whether realistically or not|

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Not only is this unthinkable now (in fact there are witch-hunts regarding alcohol and "morality"), but when I was in Germany, I was stunned that I had to show my passport to get in a club, too! I thought at least Europe would be more relaxed - not now. German youth without an "age card" or proof of age were turned away. Is the world placing tighter controls on all aspects of life and becoming more conservative?

Err buddy, Germany isn't exactly the most liberal country. They always have been a very strict people, and I was even asked for my passport because I was out past 4 am at a Cafe in Munchen. In fact it can happen anywhere in Europe, I was asked for my passport while going up to the top of the Eifel tower in france, and again when I accidentaly strayed off the touring path that goes through the Colloseum in Rome.

Plus in Germany they have train cops that ACTUALLY ask you if you validated your ticket, coming from Montreal we don't have anything near that strict, but the fact is Germany = A very strict/efficient society, so we have to respect that when we visit. That being said, the legal drinking age in Germany is I believe 16?

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You were supprised that you had to show a passport in Germany? I'm not suprised from it, Germans are strick when it comes to following the laws, and I dont blame them. Strickt laws make great societies. Look at U.S and Germany, propobly two of the strongest countries in this world.

This thread has FAILED!

Yea I am with that one guy who said strict laws make great societies why just look at all the Americans who have used drugs. God like half the US population. We are such a law abiding society I swear we are.

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid Yea I am with that one guy who said strict laws make great societies why just look at all the Americans who have used drugs. God like half the US population. We are such a law abiding society I swear we are.

Yes, we ARE. Have you seen how people drive in other countries? From Argentina to Poland, when people are out of time, they drive on the grass, across curbs, etc. This would never happen in the US.

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"The favorite American pastime is not baseball, it's moral crusades."

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Yes, we ARE. Have you seen how people drive in other countries? From Argentina to Poland, when people are out of time, they drive on the grass, across curbs, etc. This would never happen in the US.

NEVER? Where the hell do you live? I've seen it done so many times at night on the highway you might not have the majority but it does happen. Just cause you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just might be that drivers in Illinois are just bad drivers.

I'm not sure about becoming more "right-wing", but the rise in support for more conservative ideologies in Australia and the US, for instance, can probably be traced in part back to the September 11th attacks and the associated paranoia about Islamic terrorism and domestic security more generally. In times of perceived crisis people are more likely to turn to "stronger", more authoritarian politicians and the conservative governments in Australia and the US have certainly milked this illfounded fear for all it's worth.

Another interesting argument I've read is by the philosopher John Ralston Saul (see The Collapse of Globalism) who sees a global decline in support for the concept of "globalism" (which was a real buzzword during the 90s) and a corresponding rise in sentiments of nationalism. There could be a number of reasons for this (economic, cultural, security etc.) but I think it does ring true that nationalism is on the rise in many parts of the west, even in western Europe - traditionally the bastion for enlightened, liberal philosphies - where dissent against the ideals of globalism (multiculturalism, immigration, free markets etc.) and the perceived sacrificing of national identity in favour of broader coalitions (the UN, the EU etc.) has led to greater support for conservative politicians who generally oppose these sorts of things (I'm thinking especially of France and Holland here).

So while I'm not sure that the world is necessarily becoming more "right-wing" I do think there is a general trend in many western nations away from globalism and towards nationalism and that this works in the favour of right-leaning, conservative politicians.

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