During a fantastic flamewar/debate entilted "Ridiculous new anti-drug commercials", the idea was brought up that maybe there should be some type of weekly debate about issues. So I'll give it a shot, and if no one responds, then we'll stop the debate threads.

Issue #1 - Religion

I'm agnostic, and I have a great amount of trouble believing in God.

So post your thoughts, feelings, opinions, whatever. Hopefully we can get some good conversation going on.

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Trance...a state of mind.

ill try to keep this short, sweet and clear...
personally i feel that the institution of religion is flawed, one can be religious without having to follow 'rules' and have some imaginary figure shake his finger at you from above. i also feel that *occasionally* people use religion as a crutch, refusing to take responsibility for their actions. WHY would God help you or 'be on your side' more than another person? if we are all his creations, then why would he choose some over others...? those are my main 2 beefs late/

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

Well said Biznology.

I honestly feel that religion is a fear from death belief a lot of the time. People fear the unknown. It is a scary thought to believe that when life is over, it all just goes black. Most people need to believe that there is a greater purpose (I.E. reincarnation, heaven, etc.). I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, just that it shouldn't be used to shit on people who have different beliefs then you. According to Christians, if I don't believe in Jesus Christ, no matter how great, and caring, and giving a person I've been, I'm going to go to a place of fire, where I will rot, and burn, and be tortured, and experience pain to the Nth Degree for all eternity. God really must love me

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Trance...a state of mind.

Hmmm...I'm not the 'religious' (whatever that means) sort but I do believe that there is something much larger than us out there.
There have been just been too many instances in my life for me not to believe this.

But I'll try and answer some of these questions according to my beliefs and for the sake of a good conversation.

quote:

personally i feel that the institution of religion is flawed, one can be religious without having to follow 'rules' and have some imaginary figure shake his finger at you from above

I've been one that has always believed that some people choose to follow religious 'rules' for some structure in their own lives. It helps them cope. Others simply like structure and feel lost without it. It helps them focus.
As far as the finger shaking, my opinion here, that never happens. No one is ever turned away or ridiculed. Easily accepted view if coming from parents but not from Him.

quote:

i also feel that *occasionally* people use religion as a crutch, refusing to take responsibility for their actions. WHY would God help you or 'be on your side' more than another person?

I don't feel people do. I believe there are more people that use religion as a way of coping (as above). There are many people that refuse responsibility but I've yet to meet anyone that used religion as their cloak and absolve themselve. Sure they may pray about the situation but that doesn mean they're ganging up on others. It just means they're using Him as strength for coping with their own situations. No need to feel threatened here...

quote:

if we are all his creations, then why would he choose some over others...?

He doesn't. Period.

Remember these are just my thoughts, I'm not pickin' on yea Biz...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Well-stated Fir3start3r.

Not to pick on, but a lot of people do use religion as a crutch. You ever watch the HBO Special "Soldiers in the Army of God," about nutjob anti-abortionists who encourage the killing of the Doctors? Then after they bomb a clinic they just say "I was doing God's work."

The vast majority don't, but some do.

Interesting, how peole always refer to God as "Him". Is God a man? Or do we just like to think of him as one?

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Trance...a state of mind.

i think there was another really long thread where many people pointed out problems with organized religion. These problems were based on logic.

Many people who believe in their religion rely not on logic but on faith. Therefore no matter how many powerful logical problems are shown to exist, it should not matter because ones faith is untouched.

This is why for me personally there is no debate - logic does not deal with faith, wanting to believe, and feeling. Faith does not deal with logic or reasoning, it is just something you have.

Therefore the people who have faith cannot show the logical problems to be false and the logical problems cannot show that the people who have faith are wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Piet i think there was another really long thread where many people pointed out problems with organized religion. These problems were based on logic. Many people who believe in their religion rely not on logic but on faith. Therefore no matter how many powerful logical problems are shown to exist, it should not matter because ones faith is untouched. This is why for me personally there is no debate - logic does not deal with faith, wanting to believe, and feeling. Faith does not deal with logic or reasoning, it is just something you have. Therefore the people who have faith cannot show the logical problems to be false and the logical problems cannot show that the people who have faith are wrong.

"Many people who believe in their religion rely not on logic but on faith. Therefore no matter how many powerful logical problems are shown to exist, it should not matter because ones faith is untouched."?

If I have faith that a UFO will fly me to an alien world where I will reign king, I'm crazy.

If I believe that an invisible man lives in the sky and is watching all of us, no matter what we do, 24/7/365 until we die, I'm on the right path.

And there is more conclusive evidence of UFO's then of God.

I don't feel that I have faith, like people who believe in religion have faith. To me it seems like a self-fulfilling goal, to block out all elements of truth because it might crush fragile beliefs that are vital to someone's well being.

Not to crap on your opinion or anything Piet. Your entitled to your opinion, as am I.

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Trance...a state of mind.

DEVBERT...

......i would get in this one...but not too long ago we had a HUGE heated conversation about this......and i cant go through this one again...i think u can still find it if you search...it was pretty good......but i dont have the energy for this one.....

i think that BIZ's post was right on the money though..he made some VERY good points above......

i will join the next one....

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Piet i think there was another really long thread where many people pointed out problems with organized religion. These problems were based on logic. Many people who believe in their religion rely not on logic but on faith. Therefore no matter how many powerful logical problems are shown to exist, it should not matter because ones faith is untouched. This is why for me personally there is no debate - logic does not deal with faith, wanting to believe, and feeling. Faith does not deal with logic or reasoning, it is just something you have.

True story and well put.
My situtation is good example. My wife is Roman Catholic and goes to church every Sun., but there are a lot of times where I feel I have more faith than her when challenges arrive.
This isn't a strike against her religion or her church (I always respected that).
I understand that this is just the way she is as a personality and not a reflection of the religious structure she follows.

quote:

You ever watch the HBO Special "Soldiers in the Army of God," about nutjob anti-abortionists who encourage the killing of the Doctors? Then after they bomb a clinic they just say "I was doing God's work."

There will always be nutbars and a small number of rotten apples that seemingly point out the WHOLE tree. Is the whole tree rotten because I picked one that was? Probably not.
Side Note:
On the subjuct of the media (which is an arguement unto itself) I almost never believe them. They will always tend to sensationalize and magnify an 'issue' to prove their own point. This does a great job of clouding the main issue at hand normally.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

"There will always be nutbars and a small number of rotten apples that seemingly point out the WHOLE tree. Is the whole tree rotten because I picked one that was? Probably not. "

That's what interests me. There are a lot of nutbars, not just a few. Yet the nutbars truly believe that they are doing the right thing, just as much as others believe they are not. So who to say who is right?

Religion to me is all in what you get out of it. If it makes you a better human being, then you should stick with it (In my opinion). But for a lot of people it makes them more ignorant and more ill-informed then they originally were.

___________________
Trance...a state of mind.

I guess the way I look at it is that it's the nutbars that want the attention so they make the most noise. It just looks(sounds?) like there's lots of them that's all.

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Living in California, it's pretty liberal here. But Middle America is a lot more conservative. There aren't nutbars in droves, but there are more then you think.

___________________
Trance...a state of mind.