Are you sure you're looking at a VU meter, or a peak level meter?

Are you familiar with the difference between the two?

Even a single peak in your waveform will set off the clipping 'light'. VU indicates average sound levels, which correlates more to the loudness that you hear, because your brain averages out the sound too. The actual waveform may have high peaks that you can't really make out, but the dB meter does, and the audio output gets clipped if you turn up the gain too much. That results in that distorted sound you hear.

It's all in the mix and mastering (levels, EQ, compression) of the track. Getting the individual frequency ranges to come through and incrase the loudness of your track without clipping tons of your track because occasional wave amplitudes are too high.

I suppose I'll wait for the details, since I don't know how much experience you've had at this. I might just be spouting off things you already know. Sorry if that's what I've done. If not, I suggest you search, as this situation is commonly discussed on this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q I suppose I'll wait for the details, since I don't know how much experience you've had at this. I might just be spouting off things you already know. Sorry if that's what I've done. If not, I suggest you search, as this situation is commonly discussed on this forum.

dont mean to be cheeky but its called for. how do you know this is commonly discussed you have only been here not even a month whereas rich has been here well over a year. i think if it was commonly discussed he wouldnt have asked. i also have this problem in cubase i end up with a weak ass kick which is quite frustrating when it sounds immense when turned up.

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_kane i think if it was commonly discussed he wouldnt have asked.

that has to be the biggest misconception about these forums ... another thread on sidechaining anybody?

i can honestly say i doubt it is some super headroom hungry frequency. the track is well balanced when looking at the wave form of the whole track.

all i wanna know is what i am doing wrong. listen to the sample. i meant the peak meter on the transport panel of cubase... should that be going above 0.0db???? - i can have it at +5db peaking and not hear distorsion, but is this ok? i mean a cd will only work at 0.0db or below.

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q Are you sure you're looking at a VU meter, or a peak level meter? Are you familiar with the difference between the two? Even a single peak in your waveform will set off the clipping 'light'. VU indicates average sound levels, which correlates more to the loudness that you hear, because your brain averages out the sound too. The actual waveform may have high peaks that you can't really make out, but the dB meter does, and the audio output gets clipped if you turn up the gain too much. That results in that distorted sound you hear. It's all in the mix and mastering (levels, EQ, compression) of the track. Getting the individual frequency ranges to come through and incrase the loudness of your track without clipping tons of your track because occasional wave amplitudes are too high. I suppose I'll wait for the details, since I don't know how much experience you've had at this. I might just be spouting off things you already know. Sorry if that's what I've done. If not, I suggest you search, as this situation is commonly discussed on this forum.

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It doesn't "sound" loud because human hearing doesn't operate solely on the peak volume.

At the most basic level, we hear RMS. Mastering tools like compressors and levellers aim to eliminate or reduce peaks, which help bring the RMS up. Of course these can only be used to such a significant extent before you hear pumping; the best way to eliminate transients and peaks is to, well, eliminate them from the mix.

The frequency distribution also plays a huge part in making a track perceptually louder. We don't hear some frequencies as well as others, and muddiness in any band is going to raise the actual volume while lowering the audibility (i.e. perceptual volume). That's why it's so important to have a clean mix.

Both of these things fall under the larger umbrella of what we all typically just call "mix quality". Mastering plays a very small part, but for the most part, if your track sounds too quiet and it's just barely below clipping volume, you need to work on parts of the mix (levels, EQ, reverb, compression, etc., it all depends on the particulars of the track).

As for your peak meter, I'm pretty sure that was answered before; it may go above 0 dB within Cubase playing through your ASIO driver, but when you bounce it to wave then it's going to get clipped at 0 dB, and you'll either hear distortion or hideous pumping in the final master. 0.1 dB is too high; 5 dB is way too high.

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quote:

Originally posted by richg101 all i wanna know is what i am doing wrong. listen to the sample. i meant the peak meter on the transport panel of cubase... should that be going above 0.0db???? - i can have it at +5db peaking and not hear distorsion, but is this ok? i mean a cd will only work at 0.0db or below.

I think you are confusing some concepts here. Let's get things right:

PPM is a PEAK Programme Meter. It's often used over the much slower VU meter. It gives you a nice indication of possible overloads, but it doesn't in any way represents subjective loudness.

You also have to distinguish between dBu, dBFS and VU. You might wanna take a look at this:
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/us_pro_ea_vu

You're asking if the peak meter on the transport panel of Cubase should go above 0.0 db. Well, for starters, I really wouldn't use the meter on the transport panel as the resolution is not very high. Open the mixer and use the meter here or (best option) insert the plugin "PPMulator" on insert 6 (important) on your output bus. Now it should be clearer what you're measuring and what the signal is.

Cubase uses 32 bit floating point processing internally, so you don't have to worry about headroom. Signals can go way beyond 0dB without clipping. So the fact that your levels on individual audio channels are higher than 0 dB is not a problem in itself. You don't loose any quality due to this. But this is only in the internal processing. Some plugins (especially DSP-card based) would actually clip if you go higher than 0 db. And when you bounce, you also can't go higher than 0 dBFS.

So you want to make sure that your summed output is not clipping. The way to do this, is to keep the peaks on the output bus below 0 dBFS. Adjust the master fader so that the output peaks just below 0 dBFS. If you feel that the audio is not too low then you're likely talking about the subjective loudness. You should rather look into VU to measure this (or RMS levels etc.). The way to raise the subjective loudness is to use a mix buss compressor or limiter and set the make up gain so that the processed output peaks just below 0 dBFS. But you should really leave that to the mastering engineer.
If you have a balanced mix - cleaned for bad frequencies - then you should be able to get a decent subjective loudness without a mix buss compressor.

Regards

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Last edited by RivalMan on Sep-28-2006 at 22:53

thanks for all your feedback guys - rival and diginut - i apprieciate the time

sorry. when i said the meter on the transport i mean the main output meter on the mixer lol. they are the same thing but one is a mini version right?

anyways, i decided to have a look at my mixing - and it seams ok. but one snare was eating up a little bit too much. so i notched it down a bit and the rest could come up a bit.

just did an a/b test with 'simon and shaker - zero' and the track sounds pretty well balanced now. and about as loud as the pro release.

cheers again - i think i was imagining my tracks sounding mega quiet. they just arent as loud as some..

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quote:

Originally posted by richg101 thanks for all your feedback guys - rival and diginut - i apprieciate the time

No worries. Glad to have helped.

quote:

sorry. when i said the meter on the transport i mean the main output meter on the mixer lol. they are the same thing but one is a mini version right?

Think so, but I believe that the meter on the transport panel is only ment as tool to check that you have active output. Because of the size it's hard to use it for actual mixing purposes.

quote:

just did an a/b test with 'simon and shaker - zero' and the track sounds pretty well balanced now. and about as loud as the pro release.

Remember, when you do theese A/B tests always to use uncompressed wave-files (or played straight from CDs). Never use mp3-files as it is a really bad reference for proper mixing.

quote:

cheers again - i think i was imagining my tracks sounding mega quiet. they just arent as loud as some..

Maybe... In my opinion 'loud' is in no way the same as 'good'. If you wanna listen to something loud take a listen to the latest album from Benny Benassi. Most of the tracks are seriously messed up (intentionally, I guess). The track "Castaway" almost gives out the same result on a PPM meter as it does on a VU meter. It's completely distorted, clipping on every beat. It's insane... although a little bit funny, also :-) It does give the track a unique sound, though.

Regards

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quote:

Originally posted by RivalMan Think so, but I believe that the meter on the transport panel is only ment as tool to check that you have active output. Because of the size it's hard to use it for actual mixing purposes.

Yeah, you've gotta check the mixer. The reason it's got peak-hold is so you don't have to sit there and watch it non-stop, it'll tell you if the track has ever clipped.

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dj_Kane,

I think it is obvious that I misunderstood his question. I apologize if I've offended you or richg. True, I haven't been a member long, which is why I'm NOT familiar with his participation in these forums or his abilities. (Despite my daily visits to the "production studio" section for the last year) You quoted me as saying "I don't know how much experience you've had at this." For this reason I began the post with questions so that I might better understand where he was coming from, and THEN proceeded to offer advice on the assumption that the problem was something I could help with.

So really, it was not called for, but understandable. I know how forums get protective of long time members, especially when it comes to noobs. Please accept my plea that my original post was written with the upmost respect, as was this one. After all, this forum and its posters are the reason I've continued with my passion for producing trance.

-Alan

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut It doesn't "sound" loud because human hearing doesn't operate solely on the peak volume. At the most basic level, we hear RMS. Mastering tools like compressors and levellers aim to eliminate or reduce peaks, which help bring the RMS up. Of course these can only be used to such a significant extent before you hear pumping; the best way to eliminate transients and peaks is to, well, eliminate them from the mix. The frequency distribution also plays a huge part in making a track perceptually louder. We don't hear some frequencies as well as others, and muddiness in any band is going to raise the actual volume while lowering the audibility (i.e. perceptual volume). That's why it's so important to have a clean mix. Both of these things fall under the larger umbrella of what we all typically just call "mix quality". Mastering plays a very small part, but for the most part, if your track sounds too quiet and it's just barely below clipping volume, you need to work on parts of the mix (levels, EQ, reverb, compression, etc., it all depends on the particulars of the track). As for your peak meter, I'm pretty sure that was answered before; it may go above 0 dB within Cubase playing through your ASIO driver, but when you bounce it to wave then it's going to get clipped at 0 dB, and you'll either hear distortion or hideous pumping in the final master. 0.1 dB is too high; 5 dB is way too high.

Pretty much all agreeable except that transients are essential in some instruments. Kick drums will always be transient. Short length (typically no longer than 100 ms). Very fast attack phase. Same deal with snare drums. Sometimes you need transient instruments for stacato notes and so forth - its when they eat up like 5+ dB of headroom in the whole mix that you have to start thinking about removing them or limiting the peak signal of that instrument.

As for clipping in Cubase - the reason you can go over the red line in cubase and not clip internally is because Cubase works at 32 bit floating point. As you say, when you bounce it down to 24 bit you lose 8 bits of dynamic range and you may sometimes find your renders clipping because it cannot express 32 bits worth of dynamic range using only 24 bits.