http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Doesn't apply here. Historical records are historical records. It applies much more to the Al-Quaeda myth (i.e. there is no organized network of terrorist cells).

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

I think it does apply. Or are you really saying we should judge an individual based on the actions of their ancestors? I'm sure we all have some ancestor somewhere in our lineage that has done a "bad" thing, does that make us all bad people then?

Maybe I'm alone in the belief that a person should be judged on their own actions and not on another's.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I think it does apply. Or are you really saying we should judge an individual based on the actions of their ancestors? I'm sure we all have some ancestor somewhere in our lineage that has done a "bad" thing, does that make us all bad people then? Maybe I'm alone in the belief that a person should be judged on their own actions and not on another's.

No one's "judging" Bush by the actions of his "predicesors." It is however incredibly naive to assume it has no impact on his veiws, world view, or upbringing. And so far, he's done a pretty good job to destory his credibility and arouse further suspision. All you need to do is take a look at his war policy based on unfounded fear and lies, and legislation passed by his administration (i.e. the Military Commisions Act, Patriot Act, and Detainee Bill). Spitting on the bill of rights and tearing the constitution to shreds isn't an indication of "incompitance" or some minor character flaw, it's unpatriotic and unamerican to the core. There are tons of parallels there. I'm assuming you know what the Enablement Act was and the Reichstag Fire was. Even taking in to consideration that you believe the goverment had nothing to do with 9-11, eventhough it's undebatable that it had foreknowledge and refused to act; it's irrelevant, the fact of the matter is Hitler and the Nazi party used the Reichstar Fire to start a (or multiple) wars of aggression and centralize power. We already have concentration camps in America, I've posted about them before, and I learned about them form an interview with and EX-CIA ANALYST AND VETERAN WHO BRIEFED MUTIPLE ADMINISTATIONS AND PRESIDENTS! That would be Ray McGovern, who's been with the CIA over two decades. But I suppose that's all irrelevant. The power of denial, got to love it... OR NOT!

Edit: And sorry if I sound like I'm screaming, but I am.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

You can judge him by his own actions all you want, but as I said, I refuse to project the actions of a person's ancestors on them, regardless of who they are or how tempting it may be. I'm not a fan of Bush, but I don't find any benefit in looking at his grandparents when making an opinion of him. What they did is what they did and what he does is what he does, there is no blending in my opinion. I have no desire to be looked at in terms of those who came before me and I will not look at others in that light in order to make a point or justify a belief in them.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono You can judge him by his own actions all you want, but as I said, I refuse to project the actions of a person's ancestors on them, regardless of who they are or how tempting it may be. I'm not a fan of Bush, but I don't find any benefit in looking at his grandparents when making an opinion of him. What they did is what they did and what he does is what he does, there is no blending in my opinion. I have no desire to be looked at in terms of those who came before me and I will not look at others in that light in order to make a point or justify a belief in them.

Alright, then Iraq should have been left in the hands of Sadaam's son (by your logic).

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Alright, then Iraq should have been left in the hands of Sadaam's son (by your logic).

I'm not following your logic about my logic on that one.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I think it does apply. Or are you really saying we should judge an individual based on the actions of their ancestors? I'm sure we all have some ancestor somewhere in our lineage that has done a "bad" thing, does that make us all bad people then? Maybe I'm alone in the belief that a person should be judged on their own actions and not on another's.

LOL

I guess he just inhereted the evil gene. GAG!

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I think it does apply. Or are you really saying we should judge an individual based on the actions of their ancestors? I'm sure we all have some ancestor somewhere in our lineage that has done a "bad" thing, does that make us all bad people then? Maybe I'm alone in the belief that a person should be judged on their own actions and not on another's.

One more thing, this ancestor isn't exactly somewhere in the really distant past or anything eigther.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z One more thing, this ancestor isn't exactly somewhere in the really distant past or anything eigther.

We're talking about GW's grandfather and the Nazis, right? So, we're talking 1930's to 1940's. GW was born in 1946 which pretty much coincides with the fall of Nazi Germany. Unless GW was conspiring with the Nazis as a fetus, or somehow went back in time to work with grandpa Bush, I fail to see how what his grandfather did has any bearing on GW.

With the Hussein boys, you have a clear time line where they worked alongside their father committing atrocities. You can draw direct ties between what Saddam did and what his sons did. GW wasn't even alive when his grandfather did whatever it is he may have done. Again, I can't fault someone for something that happened via the hands of an ancestor before they were even born.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono We're talking about GW's grandfather and the Nazis, right? So, we're talking 1930's to 1940's. GW was born in 1946 which pretty much coincides with the fall of Nazi Germany. Unless GW was conspiring with the Nazis as a fetus, or somehow went back in time to work with grandpa Bush, I fail to see how what his grandfather did has any bearing on GW. With the Hussein boys, you have a clear time line where they worked alongside their father committing atrocities. You can draw direct ties between what Saddam did and what his sons did. GW wasn't even alive when his grandfather did whatever it is he may have done. Again, I can't fault someone for something that happened via the hands of an ancestor before they were even born.

That has nothing to do with what I said and no one said or implied GWB was "conpiring with the Nazis." No one's "faulting" GWB for what his grandfather did eigther. Although there is a clearer relation between Sadaam and his son, but that's not what you originally said at all and still has nothing to do with what I said.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller