I'll post up tomorrow on this when I have access to the files, but the Socialist group in the European Parliament is campaigning for a more sensible approach to biofuels because of the effect they are having not only on what you mention above, but on the effect they are having on the environment.

Personally, I like the idea of biofuels, but right now they are not being produced responsibly

This is the Party of European Socialists' position on biofuels:

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As part of the effort to tackle climate change and achieve a 20% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020, the EU has indeed been looking closely at the potential of biofuels. In 2003 the EU set the first, relatively low target of achieving a 5.75% share of biofuels by 2010 which the heads of government of EU countries, at their summit meeting last year, raised to a 10% target by 2020. However, the experience of producing biofuels so far and new research that has come to light has caused the EU to reassess its approach to biofuels. In particular, concerns have emerged about the environmental impact of certain types of biofuel, about the knock-on effect on food-prices if crops switch from food production to fuel production and even about the level of the real net contributions to cutting CO2 emissions. The Commission has therefore proposed a comprehensive set of sustainability criteria so that biofuels are only allowed if it can be shown without doubt that they will be produced in an ecological and socially responsible way. This will now be considered by the European Parliament and national ministers. Labour MEPs will press for even stronger sustainability criteria to ensure that the current and future use of biofuels can reduce emissions without affecting food prices or biodiversity both in the EU and developing countries.

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Originally posted by Krypton So, the World Food Program has a budget deficit of around $500 million. One of the cited causes is that farmers are starting to abandon food production in favor of bio-fuel production, thus, food supply is decreasing while demand is growing. Bio-fuels to begin with, use more energy to produce than fossil fuels, and they are only a short-term solution, because the arable land of the earth is so limited. My solution would be to abandon bio-fuels altogether, and to concentrate on a more practical solution such as hydrogen fuel production.

I tend to be in agreement with you on this one. I think that biofuel production is a good thing when it comes to downcycling waste such as animal fats, recycled cooking oils etc, but the use of cash crops directly to produce fuel is simply stupid imo. I watched a program on a rural western canadian community that was trying to create a carbon neutral community. They didnt stop using fossil fuels and switch to bio fuels, they offset their carbon production by introducing greening programs to re absorb the carbon. IE planting a 10m by 10m tree lot for each vehicle in the community. a 10m x 10m plot of poplar and ash supposedly absorbs the same abount of CO2 in one year that a chevrolet sierra 1500 produces under normal use. I think this approach is far more sustainible.

When you look at the number of farmers that now produce corn solely for the production of ethanol to only dilute fuel by 15%, it hardly passes a cost benefit model. I see the current incarnation of the biofuel plan as a pathetic bandaid solution offered by big oil to quel speculation that they are legeslatively holding back alternative energy innovation.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

I think we are concentrating on hydrogen storage. But that problem requires the work of many highly trained scientists whereas bio fuel production is fairly simple.

You may not see progress in hydrogen storage, but one of the main interests for the research group I work for is hydrogen storage. So it isn't like we're just sitting around with our thumbs up our asses ignoring the problem.

Maybe if more people would get off their asses and get a real degree instead of spending 4-7 years partying and taking bullshit classes we would see faster progress.

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Originally posted by Zild I think we are concentrating on hydrogen storage. But that problem requires the work of many highly trained scientists whereas bio fuel production is fairly simple. You may not see progress in hydrogen storage, but one of the main interests for the research group I work for is hydrogen storage. So it isn't like we're just sitting around with our thumbs up our asses ignoring the problem. Maybe if more people would get off their asses and get a real degree instead of spending 4-7 years partying and taking bullshit classes we would see faster progress.

took the words right out of my mouth..... Engineers have been saying this for years, WTF is a humanities degree anyways?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

the problem is that corn ethanol is 30% more expensive to produce than sugarcane ethanol. The US has ridiculous trade barriers to protect the corn producers so we don't import corn ethanol from brazil. Moreover, most corn ethanol plants in the US are powered with coal. not exactly environmentally friendly.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 the problem is that corn ethanol is 30% more expensive to produce than sugarcane ethanol. The US has ridiculous trade barriers to protect the corn producers so we don't import corn ethanol from brazil. Moreover, most corn ethanol plants in the US are powered with coal. not exactly environmentally friendly.

no the problem is this.


using energy to produce ethanol at a loss (energy losses due to mechanical friction, heat, waste etc)

Using ethanol to dilute a non renewable resource

and then having the balls to call this a sustainable solution.

thats the problem! In 100 years no one has been able to come up with a viable economic and efficient replacement for the internal combustion engine. Why?

in 40 years we have gone from vaccume tubes to computers the size of my palm, in 20 years we have gone from wired communications to digial wireless technologies etc...

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

Here's a great example of retarted primitive human logic - facing the inevitable climate change dilemna, humans think that by diverting some of our truly vital and decreasing farmlands into biofuel lands. Not only will nothing stop climate change, they will put us into an even worse situation by decreasing significantly the arable lands. What they dont realize is that their efforts are like throwing buckets of water into a raging forest fire. Biofuels wont tackle the climate change issue. There are far better alternatives out there .... but then again - Who Killed The Electric Car?

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How does this sounds guys?



Using solar power to produce hydrogen fuel.

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Originally posted by Krypton How does this sounds guys? Using solar power to produce hydrogen fuel.

it's a good idea. They are talking about producing hydrogen fuel with wave and tidal power at the coasts. The problem is getting funding and the efficiency of the project. i don't pretend to be an engineer, so i have no idea how viable it is. I'm down for it. i'd pay extra gas taxes for that. we need states to take the initiative on this one because washington clearly has no interest in coming up with a real solution. subsidizing corn farmers to produce ethanol inefficiently is clearly not the solution.

Washington has lost its way. POS politicians.



If I was president, I'de make sure our coastlines had huge wind farms, and the land huge solar farms, all of which can be used to create hydrogen fuel for our cars and trucks and airplanes. Screw biofuels, people need the land to make food dammit!