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aNYthing
Abrasive Cockhead @ Large



Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Near metric fuck-a-ton of high-end gear
Read This! College: biggest rip-off. Farking true! Fark college!

I long suspected that our American College system is the biggest rip-off EVAR! I attended PSU for 2 years and dropped out with relatively humble $4000 in debt. I realized that most of the teachers didn't give a crap about teaching, most preferring to have either a TA (teacher assistant, dumb ass!) running the class or just sitting and asking questions without providing any lecture info. You get about 100 pages of homework to read for next day per class. lord forbid you didn't.

I especially loved our physics teacher who said on the first day to a class of 100+ students - he said "85% of you will not pass this class. Those that remain, will be lucky to get a C. I've yet to give an A in this class for the last 4 years".

Now, you tell me, does that speak about the quality of the students or the teacher?

I dropped out and never looked back. I went to work in the field along with people who had college degrees. I was making same money then without diploma as graduate of school like Drexel (which cost about 15K/year in tuition at the time).

A friend of mine who graduated with honors in HS and in Drexel, after 8 years of working in the field is making 50% less than me - a college drop out without "cum laude" (or any college) diploma. He's still paying off his college debt and having been promoted 6 times in the last 8 years is not even close to making the kind of money I was making back in 1999.

Without any further ado, here's the rant:

quote:

By MARTY NEMKO

Among my saddest moments as a career counselor is when I hear a story like this: "I wasn't a good student in high school, but I wanted to prove that I can get a college diploma. I'd be the first one in my family to do it. But it's been five years and $80,000, and I still have 45 credits to go."

I have a hard time telling such people the killer statistic: Among high-school students who graduated in the bottom 40 percent of their classes, and whose first institutions were four-year colleges, two-thirds had not earned diplomas eight and a half years later. That figure is from a study cited by Clifford Adelman, a former research analyst at the U.S. Department of Education and now a senior research associate at the Institute for Higher Education Policy. Yet four-year colleges admit and take money from hundreds of thousands of such students each year!

Even worse, most of those college dropouts leave the campus having learned little of value, and with a mountain of debt and devastated self-esteem from their unsuccessful struggles. Perhaps worst of all, even those who do manage to graduate too rarely end up in careers that require a college education. So it's not surprising that when you hop into a cab or walk into a restaurant, you're likely to meet workers who spent years and their family's life savings on college, only to end up with a job they could have done as a high-school dropout.

Such students are not aberrations. Today, amazingly, a majority of the students whom colleges admit are grossly underprepared. Only 23 percent of the 1.3 million high-school graduates of 2007 who took the ACT examination were ready for college-level work in the core subjects of English, math, reading, and science.

Perhaps more surprising, even those high-school students who are fully qualified to attend college are increasingly unlikely to derive enough benefit to justify the often six-figure cost and four to six years (or more) it takes to graduate. Research suggests that more than 40 percent of freshmen at four-year institutions do not graduate in six years. Colleges trumpet the statistic that, over their lifetimes, college graduates earn more than nongraduates, but that's terribly misleading. You could lock the collegebound in a closet for four years, and they'd still go on to earn more than the pool of non-collegebound — they're brighter, more motivated, and have better family connections.

Also, the past advantage of college graduates in the job market is eroding. Ever more students attend college at the same time as ever more employers are automating and sending offshore ever more professional jobs, and hiring part-time workers. Many college graduates are forced to take some very nonprofessional positions, such as driving a truck or tending bar.

How much do students at four-year institutions actually learn?

Colleges are quick to argue that a college education is more about enlightenment than employment. That may be the biggest deception of all. Often there is a Grand Canyon of difference between the reality and what higher-education institutions, especially research ones, tout in their viewbooks and on their Web sites. Colleges and universities are businesses, and students are a cost item, while research is a profit center. As a result, many institutions tend to educate students in the cheapest way possible: large lecture classes, with necessary small classes staffed by rock-bottom-cost graduate students. At many colleges, only a small percentage of the typical student's classroom hours will have been spent with fewer than 30 students taught by a professor, according to student-questionnaire data I used for my book How to Get an Ivy League Education at a State University. When students at 115 institutions were asked what percentage of their class time had been spent in classes of fewer than 30 students, the average response was 28 percent.

That's not to say that professor-taught classes are so worthwhile. The more prestigious the institution, the more likely that faculty members are hired and promoted much more for their research than for their teaching. Professors who bring in big research dollars are almost always rewarded more highly than a fine teacher who doesn't bring in the research bucks. Ernest L. Boyer, the late president of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, used to say that winning the campus teaching award was the kiss of death when it came to tenure. So, no surprise, in the latest annual national survey of freshmen conducted by the Higher Education Research Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles, 44.6 percent said they were not satisfied with the quality of instruction they received. Imagine if that many people were dissatisfied with a brand of car: It would quickly go off the market. Colleges should be held to a much higher standard, as a higher education costs so much more, requires years of time, and has so much potential impact on your life. Meanwhile, 43.5 percent of freshmen also reported "frequently" feeling bored in class, the survey found.

College students may be dissatisfied with instruction, but, despite that, do they learn? A 2006 study supported by the Pew Charitable Trusts found that 50 percent of college seniors scored below "proficient" levels on a test that required them to do such basic tasks as understand the arguments of newspaper editorials or compare credit-card offers. Almost 20 percent of seniors had only basic quantitative skills. The students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the gas station.

Unbelievably, according to the Spellings Report, which was released in 2006 by a federal commission that examined the future of American higher education, things are getting even worse: "Over the past decade, literacy among college graduates has actually declined. … According to the most recent National Assessment of Adult Literacy, for instance, the percentage of college graduates deemed proficient in prose literacy has actually declined from 40 to 31 percent in the past decade. … Employers report repeatedly that many new graduates they hire are not prepared to work, lacking the critical thinking, writing and problem-solving skills needed in today's workplaces."

What must be done to improve undergraduate education?

Colleges should be held at least as accountable as tire companies are. When some Firestone tires were believed to be defective, government investigations, combined with news-media scrutiny, led to higher tire-safety standards. Yet year after year, colleges and universities turn out millions of defective products: students who drop out or graduate with far too little benefit for the time and money spent. Not only do colleges escape punishment, but they are rewarded with taxpayer-financed student grants and loans, which allow them to raise their tuitions even more.

I ask colleges to do no more than tire manufacturers are required to do. To be government-approved, all tires must have — prominently molded into the sidewall — some crucial information, including ratings of tread life, temperature resistance, and traction compared with national benchmarks.

Going significantly beyond the recommendations in the Spellings report, I believe that colleges should be required to prominently report the following data on their Web sites and in recruitment materials:


Value added. A national test, which could be developed by the major testing companies, should measure skills important for responsible citizenship and career success. Some of the test should be in career contexts: the ability to draft a persuasive memo, analyze an employer's financial report, or use online research tools to develop content for a report.

Just as the No Child Left Behind Act mandates strict accountability of elementary and secondary schools, all colleges should be required to administer the value-added test I propose to all entering freshmen and to students about to graduate, and to report the mean value added, broken out by precollege SAT scores, race, and gender. That would strongly encourage institutions to improve their undergraduate education and to admit only students likely to derive enough benefit to justify the time, tuition, and opportunity costs. Societal bonus: Employers could request that job applicants submit the test results, leading to more-valid hiring decisions.


The average cash, loan, and work-study financial aid for varying levels of family income and assets, broken out by race and gender. And because some colleges use the drug-dealer scam — give the first dose cheap and then jack up the price — they should be required to provide the average not just for the first year, but for each year.


Retention data: the percentage of students returning for a second year, broken out by SAT score, race, and gender.


Safety data: the percentage of an institution's students who have been robbed or assaulted on or near the campus.


The four-, five-, and six-year graduation rates, broken out by SAT score, race, and gender. That would allow institutions to better document such trends as the plummeting percentage of male graduates in recent years.


Employment data for graduates: the percentage of graduates who, within six months of graduation, are in graduate school, unemployed, or employed in a job requiring college-level skills, along with salary data.


Results of the most recent student-satisfaction survey, to be conducted by the institutions themselves.


The most recent accreditation report. The college could include the executive summary only in its printed recruitment material, but it would have to post the full report on its Web site.

Being required to conspicuously provide this information to prospective students and parents would exert long-overdue pressure on colleges to improve the quality of undergraduate education. What should parents and guardians of prospective students do?


If your child's high-school grades and test scores are in the bottom half for his class, resist the attempts of four-year colleges to woo him. Colleges make money whether or not a student learns, whether or not she graduates, and whether or not he finds good employment. Let the buyer beware. Consider an associate-degree program at a community college, or such nondegree options as apprenticeship programs (see http://www.khake.com), shorter career-preparation programs at community colleges, the military, and on-the-job training, especially at the elbow of a successful small-business owner.


If your student is in the top half of her high-school class and is motivated to attend college for reasons other than going to parties and being able to say she went to college, have her apply to perhaps a dozen colleges. Colleges vary less than you might think (at least on factors you can readily discern in the absence of the accountability requirements I advocate above), yet financial-aid awards can vary wildly. It's often wise to choose the college that requires you to pay the least cash and take out the smallest loan. College is among the few products that don't necessarily give you what you pay for — price does not indicate quality.


If your child is one of the rare breed who knows what he wants to do and isn't unduly attracted to academics or to the Animal House environment that characterizes many college-living arrangements, then take solace in the fact that countless other people have successfully taken the noncollege road less traveled. Some examples: Maya Angelou, David Ben-Gurion, Richard Branson, Coco Chanel, Walter Cronkite, Michael Dell, Walt Disney, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Alex Haley, Ernest Hemingway, Wolfgang Puck, John D. Rockefeller Sr., Ted Turner, Frank Lloyd Wright, and nine U.S. presidents, from Washington to Truman.

College is a wise choice for far fewer people than are currently encouraged to consider it. It's crucial that they evenhandedly weigh the pros and cons of college versus the aforementioned alternatives. The quality of their lives may depend on that choice.


source: http://chronicle.com/temp/e...rJkskjtdhknjqvf


___________________
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Old Post Apr-30-2008 01:48 
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

Your problem can be explained by the fact that you went to Penn State. People don't go to big schools for one on one time with professors.


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Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:06  United Nations
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

All that is why you go to a school with a low student-to-teacher ratio.

I've been lucky enough to attend one, and you never have any of that bullshit like classes with hundreds of students being taught in stadium seating, professors who leave everything up to "TAs," or whatever. Every class I've taken was taught by a full professor with a doctorate, classes all had forty people or less (usually thirty or less), and I never had problems reaching professors outside of class.

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:08  United States
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

Also, IMO, there should be a clearer separation between people who see college as simply a means to making money and people who actually care about something more than the piece of paper at the end of the tunnel.

The two types generally get along poorly anyway.

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:10  United States
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MeLLyMeL
I miss my best friend :(



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: In A Bathroom.

interesting stuff... especially since i'm going back to school in the fall


___________________
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I know you'll always be
Near to me
Near to me

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Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:12 
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iammesol
Burnt out and grown up



Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, USA

I love my school.

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:12  United States
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Silky Johnson
International Playa Hater



Registered: Nov 2003
Location:

I fucking love my school.

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:17 
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Renzo
where am i



Registered: Jan 2004
Location:

I fucking love Jenny and Sam's schools.

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:19 
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lücid
electric girl



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: NY


___________________
+ + + AMBROSIA
lovebirds tracklist archive | vincenzo tracklist archive

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:21 
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emc^2
FCK MNML



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: 255.255.255.255

...and God hates the fags harbored in Jenny's and Sam's schools.


___________________
quote:
No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:21 
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emc^2
FCK MNML



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: 255.255.255.255

quote:
Originally posted by lücid



___________________
quote:
No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:22 
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iammesol
Burnt out and grown up



Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, USA

quote:
Originally posted by Renzo
I fucking love Jenny and Sam's schools.


*does the same dance as your avatar*

Old Post Apr-30-2008 02:24  United States
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