This is more about layering synths but ultimately it stems down to more oscillators.
In all honesty I do not layer my leads, I usually layer my pads, and my bass is usually just my sub and mid so its not technically layered, just 2 synths playing in their respected frequency range.

So more and more it seems no matter what, and no matter what single vst I use, something is ALWAYS wrong with a lead coming from 1 synth.
It just always sounds fragile, like its just missing a certain energy to it.
I think the lead is the most important part of a track because its the most intrusive and brightest element.

So what I did was do the first half with just a typical z3ta saw virus type lead. Than after the crash the layered synth comes in. The layered one is the same z3ta patch with an additional phased hypersaw and a flanged 3osc saw lead.
Its a bit deceptive to my ears but I was trying to basically make a stronger sound my using osillators from other synths. Not for thickness but more for energy by adding 3 different sonic characters together as opposed to 3 of the same synths which imo won't sound much different if you're using oscillators all from 1 synth.

I could of took additional time to make the layers sit more "together" but I want to see if people think the second half sounds better or the first. The first sounds cleaner, but the second sounds brighter and has more energy.
I guess a follow up question would be, how often do you notice your better sounding lead lines are layered?

This one lead line alone hits my cpu at 53%, (pentium d) which is usually why I don't layed my leads, I can't bounce them to audio because I refuse to deal with losing the synths filter envelope. Using an outside filter envelope doesn't work for speedy lead lines or arps. It starts gating the sound so I don't do that.

But I think my leads always sound weak mainly because my cpu is too slow to layer them. Bass and pads I can layer when I'm not using the synths filter as I'll just bounce them to wav but leads I'm ALWAYS automating the synths filter so I can never layed as it kills my cpu.

So now I'm telling myself my problem with my sounds is not me but my cpu. (I am getting a core2 anyday but..) I'm starting to think its an excuse for a lack of skills. So how do you find your lead lines when they're finished the majority of the time? Layered or not layered?

And finally, which half sounds better in the sample? the layered or nonlayered version? Thanks!



Sample

___________________
Sequencers: FL Studio 9XXL & Reason 3.
Main Synth Bass GTs - Pro-53, V-Station, Sytrus, Subtractor, Trilian, Blue, Sylenth & Z3ta.
Main Synth Lead/Pad GTs - Z3ta, Sytrus, Sylenth, Vangard, Albino & Nexus.
Main FXs GTs - Waves Plugins, Soundtoys, Volcano, FL Native FX.
Hardware - Truths, Echo Audiofire, Virus Snow, & Novation Xio Midi-Synth.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox And finally, which half sounds better in the sample? the layered or nonlayered version? Thanks! Sample

Did you pan the kick on purpose?
What does the rest of the mix sound like?

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

Layer 3 synth1s or something and not 3 omnisphears.

You don't *need* all the extra shit a synth is using if you are layering a few sounds, so make those few sounds in smaller synths and layer them. If for instance your in FLStudio 8...load 5 instances BUZZ ADAPTER [yes, buzz adapter] and load the voidlead .dll in all 5 or something, make different leads in each, your cpu will be at like 12% [my amd 3200+ 2.0ghz is around that] and it WILL sound phat..trust me. now try the same with 5 z3ta or 5 what ever...

5 3osc ..thats is 15 oscillilators...z3ta doesn't even have 15 and its still more cpu hog than 5 3osc

the sample, both have a purpose, use the phat one for climaxes and such, and the thin for break downs...

when i hear them i don't hear "better / worsE" i hear two sounds with two different purposes

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Did you pan the kick on purpose? What does the rest of the mix sound like?

No that was just a casual mishap. I usually pan 2 kicks the bass to one side and the his to another but I just forgot to readjust the second kick and the filter on the first.

And there is no rest of the mix, I was putting 2 lead lines to see if anyone thought one sounded better as neither one sounds particulary better to me, just one has certain qualities the other doesn't (which I think the second poster touched on)

___________________
Sequencers: FL Studio 9XXL & Reason 3.
Main Synth Bass GTs - Pro-53, V-Station, Sytrus, Subtractor, Trilian, Blue, Sylenth & Z3ta.
Main Synth Lead/Pad GTs - Z3ta, Sytrus, Sylenth, Vangard, Albino & Nexus.
Main FXs GTs - Waves Plugins, Soundtoys, Volcano, FL Native FX.
Hardware - Truths, Echo Audiofire, Virus Snow, & Novation Xio Midi-Synth.

Last edited by DJ Robby Rox on Apr-01-2009 at 01:56

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Layer 3 synth1s or something and not 3 omnisphears. You don't *need* all the extra shit a synth is using if you are layering a few sounds, so make those few sounds in smaller synths and layer them. If for instance your in FLStudio 8...load 5 instances BUZZ ADAPTER [yes, buzz adapter] and load the voidlead .dll in all 5 or something, make different leads in each, your cpu will be at like 12% [my amd 3200+ 2.0ghz is around that] and it WILL sound phat..trust me. now try the same with 5 z3ta or 5 what ever... 5 3osc ..thats is 15 oscillilators...z3ta doesn't even have 15 and its still more cpu hog than 5 3osc the sample, both have a purpose, use the phat one for climaxes and such, and the thin for break downs... when i hear them i don't hear "better / worsE" i hear two sounds with two different purposes

That is really a good point. I trick myself by thinking 1 good synth x's 2 will have a better end result than 1 not so good synth x's 2. But that is true, once you start layering its too hard to tell after a little work and uses less CPU.

The only thing driving me crazy is exactly what you said, about each sound having a different purpose. But the fact is main lead lines in pro tracks don't go from a nonlayered version to a layered version despite their individual "purpose".
The pro just picks the one that sounds better and uses that one throughout the whole track.
I've just never been able to hear a real life example of that happening so I don't think anyone does it.. still doesn't mean I'm right of course.

___________________
Sequencers: FL Studio 9XXL & Reason 3.
Main Synth Bass GTs - Pro-53, V-Station, Sytrus, Subtractor, Trilian, Blue, Sylenth & Z3ta.
Main Synth Lead/Pad GTs - Z3ta, Sytrus, Sylenth, Vangard, Albino & Nexus.
Main FXs GTs - Waves Plugins, Soundtoys, Volcano, FL Native FX.
Hardware - Truths, Echo Audiofire, Virus Snow, & Novation Xio Midi-Synth.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox No that was just a casual mishap. I usually pan 2 kicks the bass to one side and the his to another but I just forgot to readjust the second kick and the filter on the first.

Eh? What are you talking about panning kicks? Please xplain....

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Eh? What are you talking about panning kicks? Please xplain....

I take 2 kicks, usually not the same, and I pan the subs from one to one side and the his/mids from another kick to the other side.

If I go left with the subs, then I know to go right with my bass and left with my main lead. I usually don't pan full though, the sub I may pan 80% left and the hi/mid kick 50% right.

I usually only do that if I don't feel like sidechaining the bass and in the final mix its not so obvious to tell theres 2 kicks. Just what works best for me to keep everything clean and tidy.

___________________
Sequencers: FL Studio 9XXL & Reason 3.
Main Synth Bass GTs - Pro-53, V-Station, Sytrus, Subtractor, Trilian, Blue, Sylenth & Z3ta.
Main Synth Lead/Pad GTs - Z3ta, Sytrus, Sylenth, Vangard, Albino & Nexus.
Main FXs GTs - Waves Plugins, Soundtoys, Volcano, FL Native FX.
Hardware - Truths, Echo Audiofire, Virus Snow, & Novation Xio Midi-Synth.

This is a song I am working on now, hardstyle ish...

This lead is Two Synth1 and a Z3ta, done in Cubase...actually, it uses 40%ish of my CPU, but I have firefox and such open. I could probably lower it even more if i used flstudio and took out the z3ta [which i might take the z3ta out anyways]

yeah, dry ass kick

You have to now how to program a synth to be able to use a bunch of smaller ones in a layer and have it sound like a big ole synth. you can't just select presets from a bunch of synths, and mash them together.

also, clone your melodies...in this clip i have the lead playing on two octaves at the same time in the midi information, but cloning your leads can greatly increase cpu usage also [which is another factor in that 40%]

also send everything through oen reverb and/or delay, each channel doesn't need its own reverb, that is just going to add loads to your cpu process...in my clip if i turn all the reverbs i have on each channel [i need to take my own advice] it goes up to like 60% !!! .. right now it doesn't even have any reverbs, its delay from synth1. with a pad and such the lead will not need as much reverb either because the residual sounds will come from elsewhere

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-01-2009 at 03:07

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir This is a song I am working on now, hardstyle ish... This lead is Two Synth1 and a Z3ta, done in Cubase...actually, it uses 40%ish of my CPU, but I have firefox and such open. I could probably lower it even more if i used flstudio and took out the z3ta [which i might take the z3ta out anyways] yeah, dry ass kick You have to now how to program a synth to be able to use a bunch of smaller ones in a layer and have it sound like a big ole synth. you can't just select presets from a bunch of synths, and mash them together. also, clone your melodies...in this clip i have the lead playing on two octaves at the same time in the midi information, but cloning your leads can greatly increase cpu usage also [which is another factor in that 40%] also send everything through oen reverb and/or delay, each channel doesn't need its own reverb, that is just going to add loads to your cpu process...in my clip if i turn all the reverbs i have on each channel [i need to take my own advice] it goes up to like 60% !!! .. right now it doesn't even have any reverbs, its delay from synth1. with a pad and such the lead will not need as much reverb either because the residual sounds will come from elsewhere

See that synth sounds like what I'm trying to avoid. (hate to be honest) Its got that typical fragile softsynth personality. Its too "smooth" sounding.
Like someone took sandpaper and sanded away its personality and its this naked pitch rather then a dressed up sound (if that makes any sense).
But very good points thanks! I'm not programming expert but at least now I'm starting to think the route to avoiding that common frail softsynth sound is a semi calculated layering frenzy.

___________________
Sequencers: FL Studio 9XXL & Reason 3.
Main Synth Bass GTs - Pro-53, V-Station, Sytrus, Subtractor, Trilian, Blue, Sylenth & Z3ta.
Main Synth Lead/Pad GTs - Z3ta, Sytrus, Sylenth, Vangard, Albino & Nexus.
Main FXs GTs - Waves Plugins, Soundtoys, Volcano, FL Native FX.
Hardware - Truths, Echo Audiofire, Virus Snow, & Novation Xio Midi-Synth.

Well I was going for that basic cheeze "stab" sound lol. Check this out then...

Synth1 + violin short bows [GPO] [and a new kick]



Mind you, this is all 30 minutes or so of work. I'm still deciding 'what' sound I want, these clips arn't just example, I'm working on this track :P

Also, these sounds are in C7..so they have virtually 0 low or mid end.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Well I was going for that basic cheeze "stab" sound lol. Check this out then... Synth1 + violin short bows [GPO] [and a new kick] Mind you, this is all 30 minutes or so of work. I'm still deciding 'what' sound I want, these clips arn't just example, I'm working on this track :P Also, these sounds are in C7..so they have virtually 0 low or mid end.

Did you listen to that sample? The clipping is so bad on my speakers its hard to hear the synth. Sounds like someones making popcorn =]

___________________
Sequencers: FL Studio 9XXL & Reason 3.
Main Synth Bass GTs - Pro-53, V-Station, Sytrus, Subtractor, Trilian, Blue, Sylenth & Z3ta.
Main Synth Lead/Pad GTs - Z3ta, Sytrus, Sylenth, Vangard, Albino & Nexus.
Main FXs GTs - Waves Plugins, Soundtoys, Volcano, FL Native FX.
Hardware - Truths, Echo Audiofire, Virus Snow, & Novation Xio Midi-Synth.

Do notice that you can also use 'unison' mode on a oscillator, in that way, it stacks the waveforms together to make the sound phatter. I never layer lot's of synths for my leads, I can basicly do the work with a 3 OSC synth.

BTW, for a phatter sound, you can also use stereo tricks. I.e. in Sylenth1 there is a option to pan each oscillator, and it really gives you a right in your face type of sound.

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