Nothing like wasting time and money on something you know can't possibly succeed!

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quote:

Originally posted by Zharen And LOL@job killing healthcare bill. It hasn't even gone into effect yet, but they already know it's killing jobs!

Several insurance companies have already closed their doors, and others have laid off thousands of workers because of the costly mandates that are either already in effect, or are about to be. This is by design, as the backdoor way to still get the single payer system (which Obama spoke about in 2007). And there is about to be an exodus of doctors as well. So yes, they have actual real data to be able to refer to it as "job killing".

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Several insurance companies have already closed their doors, and others have laid off thousands of workers because of the costly mandates that are either already in effect, or are about to be. This is by design, as the backdoor way to still get the single payer system (which Obama spoke about in 2007). And there is about to be an exodus of doctors as well. So yes, they have actual real data to be able to refer to it as "job killing".

You have any sources to back that up? I mean, you seem like a smart guy Kev, but I just find it a little hard to believe that they've already started laying people off when they have once again earned record profits by screwing the middle class.

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatc...ecords-for-2010

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The six largest investor-owned health insurance companies saw a 22 percent increase in combined net income in the third quarter, putting them on pace to break profit records for 2010. According to S.E.C. figures compiled by Health Care for America Now (HCAN), which lobbied Congress to pass March's healthcare overhaul, the top six insurers made a total of $3.4 billion in profits during Q3, or $611 million more than they did during the same period last year. The analysis looked at WellPoint Inc., UnitedHealth Group Inc., Aetna Inc., Humana Inc., Cigna Corp. and Coventry Health Care Inc., which had a combined enrollment of 85 million consumers as of Sept. 30. They saw an overall decrease in commercial enrollment of 3.4 million consumers between 2008 and 2010. All but WellPoint, Inc., meanwhile, increased how much of each premium they allocate to administrative costs and profit. On average, each of the six now devotes 20 cents on the dollar to non-medical services, compared to 16.5 cents last year and, according to HCAN, 5 cents in 1993. March's healthcare overhaul will require insurers to spend at least 85 cents of every premium dollar on patient care. Those changes take effect next year.

But it still seems like that's not enough for some.

http://www.californiahealthline.org...dual-plans.aspx

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Blue Shield of California is pursuing a series of successive rate hikes that could total as much as 59% for policyholders in the individual insurance market, the Los Angeles Times reports. Blue Shield said a total of 193,000 individual policyholders could see increases averaging between 30% and 35% as a result of three separate rate hikes since October. Rate Hike Details Tom Epstein, a spokesperson for Blue Shield, said the insurer imposed premium increases averaging 18% and as high as 29% on Oct. 1, 2010. Blue Shield raised rates again on Jan. 1. On March 1, Blue Shield plans to impose a third round of rate increases averaging 6.5% and as high as 18%. Epstein said most affected policyholders are receiving separate notices about the rate hikes, while some members will see all of the increases enacted together on March 1. Nearly one in four of the affected members are expected to see cumulative increases of more than 50% over the five month-period. Blue Shield's latest rate increase will not affect 78,000 individual policyholders whose insurance is regulated by the state Department of Managed Health Care. Such members have seen two rate hikes averaging a total of 37% since October, Epstein said. Reasons for Increases According to Epstein, Blue Shield is raising rates in part because of the federal health reform law and a new state law prohibiting insurers from charging women higher premiums than men. Epstein said that hospital expenses, physicians' bills and prescription drug prices also are contributing to rising health coverage costs. Jones' Response Blue Shield's proposed rate increases have led many consumers to file complaints with California's new Insurance Commissioner Dave Jones (D). The commissioner's office said it is reviewing the insurer's proposed March 1 rate increases (Helfand, Los Angeles Times, 1/5). Jones said Blue Shield's actions show that the Legislature should enable his office to regulate the health insurance industry in the same way that it regulates automobile coverage (AP/San Francisco Chronicle, 1/5). Currently, the insurance commissioner has the authority to block health insurance rate increases only if insurers spend less than 70% of premium revenue on medical claims (Los Angeles Times, 1/5).

You can blame Obama for the health insurance companies cutting back jobs if you want. But I believe these companies are too fucking greedy for their own good and will do whatever they can to suck more of the blood away from the people, regardless of whatever laws are passed in Washington.

quote:

Originally posted by Zharen You have any sources to back that up? I mean, you seem like a smart guy Kev, but I just find it a little hard to believe that they've already started laying people off when they have once again earned record profits by screwing the middle class.

Listen to how you parrot the class warfare rhetoric that spews from the Left and don't even realize it. How exactly are you tying the insurance companies' profits to the middle class getting screwed? If you're talking about premiums going up, it is specifically due to new mandates forced on them by Obamacare. Which, if you don't understand the economics of it, makes it very easy to buy into the politicians/pundits repeating ad nauseum, "SEE! We told you! Those evil insurers just want to raise those rates on you b... b... because they're greedy and evil!" No- they HAVE to in order to stay in business thanks to the new laws and regulations forced on them. Do you remember when Obama promised that under his plan, premiums would fall? He even said in some cases premiums would fall 3000%.

quote:

OBAMA: How many people are getting' insurance through their jobs right now? Raise your hands? A'right. Well, a lot of those folks, your employer, it's estimated, would see premiums fall by as much as 3,000%, which means they could give you a RAISE!

The perfect setup for him to blast insurance companies further, because he knew damn well... in fact, anyone with a brain about economics knew that made no sense. And you're falling for it, hook line and sinker as we see premiums jumping in almost every state now, thanks to Obamacare.

But anyway, yes of course I have sources to back it up. Here is just one example:

Principal Financial exiting the the health insurance field and cutting 1500 jobs:
http://www.insurancejournal.com/new...0/01/113746.htm

quote:

You can blame Obama for the health insurance companies cutting back jobs if you want. But I believe these companies are too fucking greedy for their own good and will do whatever they can to suck more of the blood away from the people, regardless of whatever laws are passed in Washington.

It's a sad sad place we're living in when people go around spouting off garbage like that. Yes yes, even with a 3% profit margin for the industry, those insurance companies... all they care about is sucking people dry; taking every penny from their wallets so they can spend summers on their yachts while they wipe their asses with $100 bills and laugh at the poor saps who's claims they're going to deny anyway. (ps- Medicare denies more claims than any insurance company... a harbinger of things to come IMO). Stop buying into the Soviet style class warfare rhetoric already.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Several insurance companies have already closed their doors, and others have laid off thousands of workers because of the costly mandates that are either already in effect, or are about to be.

so, are you in favour of a fat, expensive insurance sector in order to maintain high levels of employment? are you turning into a communist kev?

Commie Kev! I knew you'de come around!

OK, this bugs me. I'm 25 years old, and a chemical engineering student under my mother's insurance plan. Had this bill not been passed, I would have had to give up a lot of hours of studying to work over 20 hours at my restaurant/week. Granted, servers get called off a lot, so you have to over schedule yourself to meet that goal. This is my most important year, in terms of upper division classes, so it couldn't have come sooner. I am directly affected by this bill.

I know that it is not going to pass, but this whole repeal thing is politics. Where is the republican alternative? If they had their way, would they just allow insurance companies to kick me off right now, deny me coverage for a pre-existing condition, or other strategies for cutting costs? Medical insurance would be very costly for me, not just in terms of money, but because I would have to sacrifice my studies for working.

Last edited by OurManFlint on Jan-20-2011 at 01:44

Well Kev, as much as I would like to believe your judicious, pro-corporation rhetoric, it's still a little hard to swallow when both Wall Street and the insurance companies continue to post record profits while unemployment remains stubbornly high. And as a native Californian who has lived here all his life, I've seen first hand the stress and additional belt tightening this impact has had on my peers, as foreclosure signs continue to prop up in my surrounding neighborhood.

Also, I have serious doubts that Obamacare is the sole catalyst for Blue Shield premiums to skyrocket 59% here. If they're not out to destroy the middle class, then they're doing a bang up job in encouraging people to relocate elsewhere in the country.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Listen to how you parrot the class warfare rhetoric that spews from the Left and don't even realize it. How exactly are you tying the insurance companies' profits to the middle class getting screwed? If you're talking about premiums going up, it is specifically due to new mandates forced on them by Obamacare. Which, if you don't understand the economics of it, makes it very easy to buy into the politicians/pundits repeating ad nauseum, "SEE! We told you! Those evil insurers just want to raise those rates on you b... b... because they're greedy and evil!" No- they HAVE to in order to stay in business thanks to the new laws and regulations forced on them. Do you remember when Obama promised that under his plan, premiums would fall? He even said in some cases premiums would fall 3000%. The perfect setup for him to blast insurance companies further, because he knew damn well... in fact, anyone with a brain about economics knew that made no sense. And you're falling for it, hook line and sinker as we see premiums jumping in almost every state now, thanks to Obamacare. It's a sad sad place we're living in when people go around spouting off garbage like that. Yes yes, even with a 3% profit margin for the industry, those insurance companies... all they care about is sucking people dry; taking every penny from their wallets so they can spend summers on their yachts while they wipe their asses with $100 bills and laugh at the poor saps who's claims they're going to deny anyway. (ps- Medicare denies more claims than any insurance company... a harbinger of things to come IMO). Stop buying into the Soviet style class warfare rhetoric already.

Yes, because they simultaneously NEED to raise costs to cover Obamacare AND post record profits. It totally works that way. They were forced to make tons of money, man!

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Quarantine Classics Brunello di Montalcino (In Transit) Edition [Progressive Classics] (August 2020)
Quarantine Classics - Puligny-Montrachet Edition [Progressive Classics] (April 2020)
What Is Progressive Anyways? [Progressive House Classics] (November 2019)

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Several insurance companies have already closed their doors, and others have laid off thousands of workers because of the costly mandates that are either already in effect, or are about to be. This is by design, as the backdoor way to still get the single payer system (which Obama spoke about in 2007). And there is about to be an exodus of doctors as well. So yes, they have actual real data to be able to refer to it as "job killing".

quote:

Originally Posted by Forbes, that bastion of socialist liberalism in print The first statistics are coming in and, to the surprise of a great many, Obamacare might just be working to bring health care to working Americans precisely as promised. The major health insurance companies around the country are reporting a significant increase in small businesses offering health care benefits to their employees. Why? Because the tax cut created in the new health care reform law providing small businesses with an incentive to give health benefits to employees is working. We certainly did not expect to see this in this economy,” said Gary Claxton, who oversees an annual survey of employer health plans for the nonprofit Kaiser Family Foundation. “It’s surprising.” Via Los Angeles Times How significant is the impact? While we won’t have full national numbers until small businesses file their 2010 tax returns this April, the anecdotal evidence is as meaningful as it is unexpected. United Health Group, Inc., the nation’s largest health insurer, added 75,000 new customers working in businesses with fewer than 50 employees. Coventry Health Care, Inc., a large provider of health insurance to small businesses, added 115,000 new workers in 2010 representing an 8% jump. Blue Cross Blue Shield of Kansas City, the largest health insurer in the Kansas City, Mo. area, reports an astounding 58% increase in the number of small businesses purchasing coverage in their area since April, 2010-one month after the health care reform legislation became law. “One of the biggest problems in the small-group market is affordability,” said Ron Rowe, who oversees small-group sales for the Kansas City operation for Blue Cross Blue Shied. “We looked at the tax credit and said, ‘this is perfect.” Rowe went on to say that 38% of the businesses it is signing up had not offered health benefits before. Whatever your particular ideology, there is simply no denying that these statistics are incredibly heartening. However, for those of you who cannot get past your opposition, even for a moment of universal good news, let’s break it down. The primary, most enduring complaint of the opponents of the ACA has been that the law is deathly bad for small business. Apparently, small businesses, and their employees, do not agree. The next argument has been that the PPACA is a job killer. If these small businesses found the new law to be so onerous, why have so many of them voluntarily taken advantage of the benefits provided in the law to give their employees these benefits? They were not mandated to do so. And to the extent that the coming mandate obligations might figure into their thinking, would you not imagine they would wait until 2014 to make a move as the rules do not go into effect until that time?

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2...s-to-obamacare/

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Even if the point about job losses is true, what is more important, killing a few jobs, or through health care, reducing the pain and suffering of millions more - and in some cases, preventing actual people being killed? Also, have you the Republicans ever stopped to consider how many times greater is the figure for the number of uninsured people whose jobs have been killed as a result of them being too sick to work?