What do people do with too much precision? The way I currently work is this: say I need to find a crossover frequency or a compressor threshold. I enter a value, listen if it needs to be higher or lower or greater or smaller, and enter a new value. Typically this means narrowing the value down, but as you can imagine the greater the precision a plug-in uses, the more time-consuming this becomes (the worst are when there are attack and release times or volumes with two decimal places).

I've tried all kinds of techniques to get around this, from limiting the accuracy of values I enter to even closing my eyes, but nothing works. If I use the mouse to enter values I'm just going to put my fate in whether or not the mouse moves at the last second rather than what's in my head, and that just doesn't work. If I close my eyes and don't look at the value, I'm just going to be obsessing over whether it needs to be up or down, and I'm still going to be hearing (probably insignificant, you might say, but it just doesn't feel it) changes in level. That boils down to whether or not such 'polishing' is really needed, which even greater heightens the obsession.

If a plug-in uses preset values that already helps a great deal, but it's not the same thing when it just doesn't 'sound' or 'feel' right.

This is a serious problem I've struggled with for many years that has caused me a great deal of anxiety, and pretty much doesn't guarantee me a career in audio engineering.

So what do people do with too much precision? Do you tweak the value of something and just move on without hearing the difference, or is anyone else plagued by this constantly, or is it just my obsessive mind striving for perfection? I like to think certain plug-ins just offer too much precision, but certainly they wouldn't do this just to torment me, and it doesn't stop me from listening to the last decimal place. Please someone help!

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There is no such thing as "too much precission" there is only "too much choice" and people who don't know what there doing and thus can not make judgemental decissions with "too much choice" (or resolution) if you will.

One of the solutions is to spend more time actually listening what the plugin does.
Another solution can be to stick to presets
3rd solution can be to stick to plugs with less choice, or "stepped" dails (like the API Collection from WAVES)

The "problem" is not with the plug, but with the guys using them, not being able to commit choice.

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Last edited by Raphie on Feb-13-2011 at 13:19

128 is enough precision for me. my mouse cant really handle anything more. nor can my ear or eye.

quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR What do people do with too much precision? The way I currently work is this: say I need to find a crossover frequency or a compressor threshold. I enter a value, listen if it needs to be higher or lower or greater or smaller, and enter a new value. Typically this means narrowing the value down, but as you can imagine the greater the precision a plug-in uses, the more time-consuming this becomes (the worst are when there are attack and release times or volumes with two decimal places). I've tried all kinds of techniques to get around this, from limiting the accuracy of values I enter to even closing my eyes, but nothing works. If I use the mouse to enter values I'm just going to put my fate in whether or not the mouse moves at the last second rather than what's in my head, and that just doesn't work. If I close my eyes and don't look at the value, I'm just going to be obsessing over whether it needs to be up or down, and I'm still going to be hearing (probably insignificant, you might say, but it just doesn't feel it) changes in level. That boils down to whether or not such 'polishing' is really needed, which even greater heightens the obsession. If a plug-in uses preset values that already helps a great deal, but it's not the same thing when it just doesn't 'sound' or 'feel' right. This is a serious problem I've struggled with for many years that has caused me a great deal of anxiety, and pretty much doesn't guarantee me a career in audio engineering. So what do people do with too much precision? Do you tweak the value of something and just move on without hearing the difference, or is anyone else plagued by this constantly, or is it just my obsessive mind striving for perfection? I like to think certain plug-ins just offer too much precision, but certainly they wouldn't do this just to torment me, and it doesn't stop me from listening to the last decimal place. Please someone help!

Precision only matters when it makes a difference. For example, if you tweak the detune ocillators by 5 cents, it's going to make a difference to the sound. Where as adjusting the threshold by 1 or 2 db might not even matter on a compressor. Maybe post some examples online of differences you struggle with, and people can tell you whether or not your worrying about something that is truly important.

The other problem is that engineers can trick themselves into hearing something that they are not, so an outside opinion might help you in this case.

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

Last edited by Beatflux on Feb-13-2011 at 14:33

which plugins are you talking about in particular ?

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Try rendering a given song with a few different settings, which differ by only a few decimal values.

Listen to them in a month and see if you can tell which version is which.

Better yet, turn them down really quiet and in mono, and have someone vacuuming in the next room and see if you can tell which version is which.

Having this level of precision might have been an arbitrary decision on the plugin maker's part. Potentially they could have shown it to more decimal places. Purely hypothetically, if it went to twenty decimal places, would you carry your obsession all the way to the last decimal place?

Keep in mind, some great songs were made using graphic equalizers with fixed frequency bands.

quote:

Originally posted by derail Keep in mind, some great songs were made using graphic equalizers with fixed frequency bands.

Yea, lots of killer tracks were made with very limited gear. I think it was 'music sounds better with you' or a similar big track from yesteryear made with an Akai and a few bits of very basic gear.

I just tweak a compressor until the ducking and pumping has the right organic mojo feel. I mean when building the track, not at mastering stage as I'm clueless on mastering.

You have to approach the studio in a decisive mood.

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quote:

Originally posted by Raphie There is no such thing as "too much precission" there is only "too much choice" and people who don't know what there doing and thus can not make judgemental decissions with "too much choice" (or resolution) if you will. One of the solutions is to spend more time actually listening what the plugin does. Another solution can be to stick to presets 3rd solution can be to stick to plugs with less choice, or "stepped" dails (like the API Collection from WAVES) The "problem" is not with the plug, but with the guys using them, not being able to commit choice.

Thanks, but I've been doing this for 15 years and already know how to listen to sound (too much so, it seems). As I said, sticking to plug-ins with preset values like the Waves API collection works, but it's still limiting what's in my head, and it just seems like a cheap alternative (besides, those API plugs are only suited to certain situations, so I can never "stick" to it.)

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Put an end to the loudness war. Don't limit or compress your mixdown until mastering; leave the master channel alone.

Contact me for mastering.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Where as adjusting the threshold by 1 or 2 db might not even matter on a compressor.

What? Even 0.1 dB makes a difference! That's my problem...

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux Maybe post some examples online of differences you struggle with, and people can tell you whether or not your worrying about something that is truly important. The other problem is that engineers can trick themselves into hearing something that they are not, so an outside opinion might help you in this case.

I appreciate the help. I would post examples but I know that people's objectives are different so this isn't really of much use. And I know what you mean about the "placebo effect", but I'm too grounded in my own techniques to trust someone else's opinion.

___________________
Put an end to the loudness war. Don't limit or compress your mixdown until mastering; leave the master channel alone.

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quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad which plugins are you talking about in particular ?

I mostly use Waves (let's say the attack and release times on the LinMB, for instance) because they're at least the least anxiety-provoking. I love how certain things (such as the Q on the VEQ) are preset, but the Oxford EQ for instance uses two decimal places for the Q, and my question is how do people tweak the knobs like that with a mouse, which is restricted by the speed at which your mouse moves and your screen's resolution. Sure I can set the value and move on, but the problem is I'm never satisfied with what I hear so I keep wanting to narrow it down... And I'm sure it wouldn't be any different when using physical knobs.

___________________
Put an end to the loudness war. Don't limit or compress your mixdown until mastering; leave the master channel alone.

Contact me for mastering.

quote:

Originally posted by derail Try rendering a given song with a few different settings, which differ by only a few decimal values. Listen to them in a month and see if you can tell which version is which. Better yet, turn them down really quiet and in mono, and have someone vacuuming in the next room and see if you can tell which version is which. Having this level of precision might have been an arbitrary decision on the plugin maker's part. Potentially they could have shown it to more decimal places. Purely hypothetically, if it went to twenty decimal places, would you carry your obsession all the way to the last decimal place? Keep in mind, some great songs were made using graphic equalizers with fixed frequency bands.

Thanks for this thoughtful reply. If it went down 20 dB I would just listen which sounds better and is closest to what I have in mind, which is just like restricting the accuracy of values I enter.

I realise songs are made without such obsessions, but that still doesn't help me when I have all those options available to me.

___________________
Put an end to the loudness war. Don't limit or compress your mixdown until mastering; leave the master channel alone.

Contact me for mastering.

I hear you, but your "issue" is clearly "choice"
This is not a plugin or settings issue, but a "make a choice and commit" issue in your mind. The plugs are more than capable to fulfil any of your artistic visions.

quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR Thanks, but I've been doing this for 15 years and already know how to listen to sound (too much so, it seems). As I said, sticking to plug-ins with preset values like the Waves API collection works, but it's still limiting what's in my head, and it just seems like a cheap alternative (besides, those API plugs are only suited to certain situations, so I can never "stick" to it.)

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