Can't I edit my own posts!? Anyway, i just wanted to make clear that I'm talking about the Black africa here (excluding the mediterranian countries and the massive dutch presence in South Africa)

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interesting that you said, "what to do with africa"... who are we, and what could we do that could "help"?....

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Originally posted by trancedfarmer interesting that you said, "what to do with africa"... who are we, and what could we do that could "help"?....

We're the brats (is it ok to use this word?) of those who got the continent into this mess. There were developed civilizations there, you know?

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quote:

the massive dutch presence in South Africa

WTF! We lived in piece with the natives, until British army forced the poor Dutch farmers to live in their territory.

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Originally posted by jploveparade WTF! We lived in piece with the natives, until British army forced the poor Dutch farmers to live in their territory.

That's why I'm EXCLUDING you guys You're fine

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I thought you found us even worse than the Spanish, French and German imperialists in Africa

Although "apartheid" is a Dutch word

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Originally posted by Maaz In my opinion, white people should "clean up" all the mess they've done in the continent and leave. We like to think that we're developed and that we should teach other civilizations to behave like us, but they were a lot better without our "knowledge". We caused unnecessary wars and hunger, did it help them?

I agree with you, except I do not think "we" should "clean up" as this will most likely do even more damage. In my view we should seal ourselves (the west) from the continent and let the people find their own way through civilization development - both when that road takes them through the ups and the downs.

On a different note, the logic "our ancestors hurt Africa, we must make amends" suffer from two faults IMO. First of all there's the question of whether guilt can be inherited: if your dad kills mine and then dies, am I entitled to kill you? And where to draw the line - crimes dating back 100 years? 500 years? 20000 years? In the latter case, we could argue that the people of Syria/Iraq is really to blame for all the crap that is taking place in the world today, and should pay for everything.
Furthermore, there's the question of whether you *can* make amends. The people living in Mongolia today is hardly in a position where they can pay for what Djenghis Khan did years ago, but is incompetence in administering wealth as a nation an excuse for not making amends?

The second fault connected to the aforementioned logic, is whether or not the ancestors of the west today really is solely to blame for the state of Africa today? "The white man" did awful things elsewhere in the world, but not all places are still plagued by wars on a regular basis. And according to one of my history books African tribes were responsible for plundering and enslaving other Africans during the colonial period - "the white man" was certainly enticing them but does that necessarily mean he is solely to blame?

Harper's August issue had a great article addressing this topic; it's called "Making a Killing" for those interested.

The main jist the article wanted to get across is that thorwing money and aid by opening and promoting trade is not going to fix anything, as this simply will add to the already present chaos and drive certain groups to continue fighthing civil wars. Wars that most of us have probably never heard anything about in the media.

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I think most of the world doesn't want western influence or help at the moment, I think the west (this includes you Europeans as well) should keep its nose out of places that dont concern it. Africa isn't Iraq, it should be left alone to heal after the damage european colonialism has cause it.

I also think we should stop exporting western movies & culture to the third world. Violent hollywood movies are giving other countries a decadent & disgusting image of who we are in the western world.

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quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic In my view we should seal ourselves (the west) from the continent and let the people find their own way through civilization development - both when that road takes them through the ups and the downs.

i agree with you.
you cant force someone to get better, they have to want to get better themselves. its has to come from within, not from an outsider. thats why Peacful warrior said, pumping money there will not really solve anything, not until they have set up some way that they can use it to help themselves.

its either letting them solve their own problems or us taking a much stronger approach then we are currently and actually intervene in the political affairs of the countries and the setting up new governments for each country, that we think would serve the country best. but that might be impossibly hard to do, will probably cost a lot and may even spill lots more blood, so im still for the first approach.

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hmmm....having the "white man" clean up the mess he made in Africa, sounds like another type of "white man's burden". Wat up Rudyard Kipling.

Anyways, I am of the opinion that we need to let time for Africa to grow. It will someday be at least a respectible continent (oh God I hope so) in terms of standard of living, health issues, etc. but it will take time. Unlike most of Asia (Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand, Malaysia all having developed very rapidly) Africa is hindered by its colonial past (though not totally) and the fact that it has just never been given much of a chance to grow.
First off, Africa needs peace and political stability. From peace and political stability all things will proceed. But until then, the continent will remain in disarray.