Sorry to dig up a post from far back...

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Originally posted by LiquidX Also, the Bible is something to really look and study, not just read through it, but study it. But anyways, like I said, the Bible is something one must study deeply in order to understand it, and with it pray.. if you apply what the bibles teaches to your daily life, then you should be closer to get an answer..

The thing is you must remember, the Bible has been translated several times from languages to languages over thousands of years...it must have lost something in the translation!

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor Sorry to dig up a post from far back... The thing is you must remember, the Bible has been translated several times from languages to languages over thousands of years...it must have lost something in the translation!

It was written in Latin. And maybe some mixed arab languages. So there wasent many translations. Maybe to the modern times, but the originals are still there.. is not like they were written and then translated, and then translated .. and the original was lost among translations. No its not like that.

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Originally posted by LiquidX It was written in Latin. And maybe some mixed arab languages. So there wasent many translations. Maybe to the modern times, but the originals are still there.. is not like they were written and then translated, and then translated .. and the original was lost among translations. No its not like that.

Actually I think that the bible translations were going something like this: hebrew->greek->latin->modern languages. So there were several mistakes being made. One of the more known ones was about the virgin Mary. Originally she was not a virgin, but a young woman. Then one of the translations used the word that could mean both a virgin and a young woman. From then on she became a virgin.

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http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/

I hope this site will give you some perspective on to how the bible was translated

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Strange, these are my sentiments exactly about any Creationist/IDer, minus the anti-israel part. Their inability to distinguish scientific fact and observation from their fundamental religious beliefs is all too evident. I believe that if you would like to discuss Creationism/ID topics, instead of posting a copy/paste article(s) that discusses a broad range of topics, pic a few out instead which grabs you the most and let's discuss those. Before you do, however, to savoid redundancy you might want to answer some of the refutations given to you, specifically those of probability and argument from incredulity.

you say that creationist/id'ers (what is that?) dont distinguish scientific fact and observation from their fundamental religious beliefs. I am not part of any creationist groups, so I don't know them or their beliefs.

I agree with you guys that people who pose wacked out theories against science will not hold up.

Once again I will say that Judaism, and my logical understandings go hand in hand with Science.

there was a professor here and a Kabbalist (jewish mystical master) and they were talking about quantum physics and that kind of stuff, and they were both talking about the same things, except the Kabbalist never touched a science book in his life, and the professor was just that, a science profesor and not a student of Kabbalah!!!!!!

So you see, if you can put aside all the mishmosh of religion, and focus on the fact that I am saying there is something out there that 99.9% of the people don't know about, which is a scientific valid approach to Hashem, and understand that with objectivity and logical analysis you can agree, that it is plausible.

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to savoid redundancy you might want to answer some of the refutations given to you, specifically those of probability and argument from incredulity.

Yah I want to answer everything here, except I find it hard to find a valid argument sometimes in these points, it seems like like not so much a question as much as a very flaky point... Please if you don't mind, in question form if possible post what exactly you want answered in this post so far that I have missed? I am waiting for a response from a professor from what Drug_tit0 said, and I sent someone else a few points that people made, because I want to see what my teachers would say about these things. Once I get some answers from them about those things, I will write it up here, and we will discuss it.


Do you want to start a new thread in the meantime about creationism? I'd love to discuss it. But realize my view is not of the 'western believer'. I hold a unique logical view based on science and the jewish approach.

So I ask remember not to catagorize me with those guys like the 'moonies' etc...

everything I believe and hold, is based on logic and fact, so we have some common ground!!!

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Originally posted by occrider And what makes you so certain that was the beginning? Yes science can reveal what conditions were like in the universe as we know it, up until a fraction of a second after the big bang, however we have no idea of what preceded the big bang itself. For all we know, the big bang originated from a chicken.

that is not logical, and therefore not plausible.

I hold that anything in reality must be logical, things don't happen for a no reason, the fact that universe was created alone must signify some reason. Think about it and don't throw off the idea. How can a universe just come into being at one point. Because we know that with the creation, also the dimension of TIME was created, meaning before the starting of the big bang, there was no time. Therefore what was there?

I hold that Hashem was just there, there was no seperation of any forces, and everything was just ONE. (like the buddhists think).

Hashem wanted to create a situation where there was a concealment of the truth of His existence, and therefore created the universe, in a way that we could look at the world and think it was natural and had no creator. That is the whole story of Abraham. He went out and realized that there is not just chaos in the world, but order, and the order ultimately has a creator, not who was created, but JUST CREATED.

This understanding enabled Abraham, on his own, using his OWN BRAIN, through LOGIC and not believing some guy that says "believe it or die!" to come to the realization that there is a supreme being, without beginning nor end. This is Hashem.

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Originally posted by surferfb And it is suggested that the universe ends with a "big crunch" which is pretty much the opposite of the big bang. So the universe ends by going back to one point. Once that happens another big bang takes place. Therefore, universe has no beginning or end, but has always been there.

ok so lets use logic here.

this theory is based on the 2 things.
1 that the universe expanded initially, and will eventually contract.
2 this process has been occuring forever.

ok so i got 1 question. Where is the proof that this has been occuring forever?

even more questions... what started this process, and why would it work like this? randomly for no reason forever this wierd contracting universe has been there just expanding and contracting? Is there more universes that do this?

what about a mirror effect? I mean, if this universe contracts and expands, could it be that there is an equal process hapening on the other side of this contraction expansion that does the same thing?

this can go on forever. So for now lets assume that this theory is just that, and it is as valid as the other theories.

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Originally posted by LiquidX We arent capable yet to understand all this universe mistery.. although if one sits to think about it, to me its very scary stuff....

yes it is. Its even more scary that we can realize that we know so little about the universe, yet we think we can disprove and throw out the idea that there is a creator of the universe, even when we know SO LITTLE ABOUT IT.

how can judge about the existence of a supreme being, when we can barely touch upon the understandings of His creations!

Someone once said, G0d doesn't exist! I can't see him therefore HE doesn't exist! Show me him! A wiseman came to him and said, look at the sun for a minute. The man said, are you crazy? I will go blind if I look at the power of the sun for a minute! And the wiseman said, you are not even able to look at a mere creation of G0d and you expect to be able to see HIM???

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Originally posted by occrider Ah yes, well I can answer both your and Renegade's questions together quite convenientely. Yes I was referring to dark matter. And yes current indications are that the rate of expansion was actually increasing. Now from some lectures I attended a while ago, what's interesting is that the amount of dark matter in the universe is increasing as well. Some theorize that as the universe expands, this expansion creates more dark matter. What does that tell us? That dark matter, despite having mass, has attributes of self-repulsion! Actually, it is not so much the dark matter that exhibits attributes of self-repulsion but rather dark energy. Dark energy is a relatively new theory and in the past mass density alone would be the determinant of the fate of our universe. However, since the apparent acceleration of our universe is fueled by the role of dark energy, the fate of our universe has shifted to the role dark energy plays in controlling our acceleration. What is not known, is anything about the nature of dark energy ... whether it is something that decays or its equation of state changes, etc. Basically, could dark energy actually change its state and have properties of attraction in the future? Well, the article I was reading explains it much better: http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/osdark.pdf Therefore, when I say that we don't even know what 90% or whatever of the mass of the universe even IS, (or more importantly the nature of the component causing its acceleartion, aka dark energy) I'm saying that we cannot come to an absolute conclusion that the big crunch/bang theory is completely out the window.

crazy stuff!!!! I love Science!!!!

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Originally posted by Spin Doctor Sorry to dig up a post from far back... The thing is you must remember, the Bible has been translated several times from languages to languages over thousands of years...it must have lost something in the translation!

yes it is true, the translations have lost a lot of truth. This is actually how the christian missionaries convert people, is through the mis-translations of the real text. For instance, I have heard that somewhere they say there is proof in the original bible of Jesus, but in fact it was from the translation of a hebrew word into greek, then into latin, and then into english. Since a word in hebrew may not have an exact translation in greek, they use a similar word, and so on, resulting in a totally warped version by the time it hits english!!!!!!!!!

I have a solution for you however. The original text is written in BIBLICAL HEBREW. If you want to learn it from its un-translated text, the only way is from ORTHODOX RABBI's, or scholars in BIBLICAL HEBREW. I am personally learning now to translate from the ancient language. It is not so different from modern hebrew language.

Also I might add that the bible was not given by itself, there was an oral tradition to explain all of it given to.

If you want to say that this is not true, then in the bible it says if you break the shabbat you will be killed. Without the oral tradition we would not know that this means many different things, and that the process is so rarely leading to death that a court that sentenced 2 people to death within 70 years was called a bloody court.

Also Hashem says in the bible: "slaughter your animals in the method I have told you" but does not elucidate it further, so what is the way he told us? The way he said in the ORAL TRADITION!!

the oral tradition by the way, was almost lost due to constant persecution of the jews by the romans and greeks and babylonians, so it was written down, and is called the TALMUD today. Also the KABBALAH is part of the oral tradition, but it is seperate from the TALMUD because it is very deep and hard to understand.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Actually I think that the bible translations were going something like this: hebrew->greek->latin->modern languages. So there were several mistakes being made. One of the more known ones was about the virgin Mary. Originally she was not a virgin, but a young woman. Then one of the translations used the word that could mean both a virgin and a young woman. From then on she became a virgin.

exactly!

I am very impressed. This is what I was referring to about the missionaries citing as proof.

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Originally posted by DJBARON yes it is. Its even more scary that we can realize that we know so little about the universe, yet we think we can disprove and throw out the idea that there is a creator of the universe, even when we know SO LITTLE ABOUT IT. how can judge about the existence of a supreme being, when we can barely touch upon the understandings of His creations! Someone once said, G0d doesn't exist! I can't see him therefore HE doesn't exist! Show me him! A wiseman came to him and said, look at the sun for a minute. The man said, are you crazy? I will go blind if I look at the power of the sun for a minute! And the wiseman said, you are not even able to look at a mere creation of G0d and you expect to be able to see HIM???

What I ment is that we are not ABLE or CAPABLE to say how, why and when the Universe was created and why, that only a GOD knows all of it, and us as human beens arent capable yet to understand that, not until afterdeath...

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