quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 But you refuse to read the proof I have told you about. I gave you the title. Even you can't deny it, it's in a book and it's proof.

Okay Nessa. I obliged you this weekend and went to our local Border’s and checked out Strobel’s newer book you continue to refer to. I sat down and I skimmed through it a little bit, and sure enough it was different than the book I read. His Case for Faith was more or less an answer to those critics of his first book I read, The Case for Christ. He broke it down into 8 different objections that he thought a critic of Christianity may have.

Like his first book I read, it didn’t surprised me how well Strobel writes and describes his arguments. No doubt it was why he held such a high journalist position at the Chicago Tribune for so many years. However in his first objection alone I immediately found a similar flaw in his writing: he has a tremendous sense of bias, and gives very little if any attention to the critics of Christianity. For example, his first interview was with a former minister turned agnostic. In return, however, Strobel answers the critic with 8 different Christians! And of course, no rebuttal is allowed from those 8 answers. Not exactly equal, is it?

But let’s deal with the crux of your argument, Nessa, with Strobel’s 3rd argument: Evolution. Immediately I identified a common Creationist flaw with pretty much the entire chapter: the majority of Strobel’s argument had little to do with evolution, and more to do with the concept of abiogenesis. Evolutionists have very little, if any concern over how life was created on earth (abiogenesis). Rather, they study how life went forth from that period on (evolution). It amazes me how Strobel, being such a great investigative journalist, confuses these two. He then, of course, continues on about transition fossils never being found, which I can only conclude that like you, Nessa, Strobel neglected to read some of the same links I gave you about transitional fossils.

And then much to my delight, Strobel touches on a Creationist concept I am very familiar with, Irreducible Complexity. For his example on this subject, he uses Dr. Michael Behe and his book, Darwin’s Black Box, which I’ve read a number of times. I’ll spare you the detail of the concept of IC Nessa, because I know you’ll do a good job on your own reading more about it, much like you’ve shown here so far. But I’ve debated and thoroughly debunked Behe’s concepts many times over in my past. And one of my favorite authors has also done a wonderful job debunking Behe in his own right, Dr. Ken Miller. Here’s just a couple of websites you can check out for yourself (if you have the intellectual honesty to do so):

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/e...view/index.html
http://www.world-of-dawkins.com/Catalano/box/behe.shtml

It’s interesting to note that Ken Miller himself is a Christian, yet he has no problem with evolution. It may also be interesting to note that 40% of evolutionists believe in a deity of some sort, including some are actually Christians like Miller. Coincidentally, one of my favorite books I’ve read is Miller’s book, Finding Darwin’s God: A Scientist’s Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution. It’s truly a fascinating book, and I’ve recommended it for both Christians and non-Christians in the past.

But back to Strobel. I did not read the rest of his book (I was sitting at Border’s for over an hour anyway and I had other errands to run), but I felt it necessary to do a little more research about some criticisms on the internet. I would be really interested to hear what you have to say to the following criticisms:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...ned/index.shtml
http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...d/strobel.shtml

Please do take note of the criticisms on objection 3, and tell me what you think.

Overall, this chapter takes the common logical fallacy of appeal to ignorance, which you are also very apt at doing. IOW, since Strobel can’t possibly understand (or willing to listen in your case), God must therefore be the culprit. Very bad logic.

quote:

No,it's not a "because I say so"

Yes it is.


[/QUOTE]It's in a book,I gave you the title. Either read it, or don't. But that's proof,it's just as liable as the internet.[/QUOTE]

Really Nessa, does your entire case against evolution rest on this book alone? Do you have anything more to add, considering my criticisms above?

quote:

and I've shown there is a difference. You should know the difference... So tell me, Do you want your Microwave to be a MICROwave? Or a MACROwave? There's a huge difference between the two. Micro,and macro aren't the same. micro- or micr- pref. Small: microcircuit. Abnormally small: microcephaly. Requiring or involving microscopy: microsurgery. One-millionth (10-6): microampere. macro- or macr- pref. Large: macronucleus. Long: macrobiotics. Inclusive: macroinstruction. Get it?

Why yes, I do get this rather immature elementary breakdown of the two words. A wonderful game of semantics you're playing with me here. What is painfully obvious, however, is that you’re being intellectually dishonest and failing to read the links I gave to you, because those links answers this very question you ask about micro- and macro-.

What does Exodus 20:16 (the 9th Commandment) say about dishonesty? Now remember, you can lie to me, you can even lie to yourself, but you just can’t lie to Jesus. So let’s try to be a little more honest with each other and read each other’s content that helps support our arguments. I have read yours, you must do me the honors of reading mine. Now just to be nice, here it is again:

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Now I know there’s a lot there. But as I’ve said before, feel free to ask me questions if you need to. But more specifically, here’s a specific part on evidence on speciation (macroevolution):

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc...tml#speciations

Get it?

quote:

It's just basic Biology. I don't have the author or anything,the book is in my sisters room ( 2 flights of stairs up. )

You must do better than this. Unlike you, I investigate and research. I want the name of the author so I can look up things for myself. Now go get your sister, go get your mother, go get your neighbor, or go get a very long pole with a little sticky thingy on the end – do whatever you need to do to get that book for me, please.

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In your opinion.

No, God told me too. Can you prove me wrong?

quote:

Again,I'll do as I please,Just as you have and you will. I'm not here to be demanded,you aren't my authority,Alright?

Now you’re really acting 16. What’s next? I’m waiting for a “you’re not the boss of me” comment to come soon. Geez.

You either deal with the fact that this forum is about beliefs, political or otherwise (in this case religion), or kindly don’t post. Your decision.




[/QUOTE]God isn't made up,and nope I'm not desperate.[/QUOTE]

Okay, prove he isin’t made up. And since I’m a deist and don’t believe in the Bible which is man-made, you’re going to have to use something else to convince me.

quote:

Again, I told you. God is logical,God isn't some made up thing. He's real, the real deal. I shouldn't have to explain myself,you know the answer already.

Wow, you’re really going to use logic on me now? You already committed a logical fallacy here: leap of logic. By you simply saying God is logical doesn't make him logical one bit. Prove to me step by step how God is more logical than the Great Cookie Monster I believe in. And no, I don’t know the answer – that is up to you to prove it to me. I can’t see God. I don’t believe the fact that God told men to stuff down about him in a thing called “the Bible” anymore than I believe Allah told Muhammed all his stuff in the middle of a desert. I want proof that God actually did it. Talking through men isin’t enough. For all I know, they all smoked a big spleef and hallucinated their entire life. So show me outside of the Bible that the Christian God exists, and maybe I’ll give credence to it. Stop playing games and prove it.

quote:

They aren't here, I told you they are on another board.

Give me the links. I want to see how well you did with others. Please be honest. Remember the 9th Commandment.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider There comes a time when you meet people who are neither logical nor rational in their beliefs or arguments. Sometimes you just have to let it go ...

Unfortunately you are right. I must say it saddens me to see how people sometimes ignore all the logic, knowledge, and evidence presented to them. Bah, whatever, I give up. Yay for home schooling!

___________________
1+1=10

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Unfortunately you are right. I must say it saddens me to see how people sometimes ignore all the logic, knowledge, and evidence presented to them. Bah, whatever, I give up. Yay for home schooling!

But you guys were doing such a good job .

In keeping up with the spirit of this debate, I was thinking about inviting my bedroom wall to join the argument. He's not very logical, doesn't respond well to specific arguments, but I've never seen such conviction! Apparentely his style of debate must be growing popular ...

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider But you guys were doing such a good job . In keeping up with the spirit of this debate, I was thinking about inviting my bedroom wall to join the argument. He's not very logical, doesn't respond well to specific arguments, but I've never seen such conviction! Apparentely his style of debate must be growing popular ...

Now be patient. Let's just see how far this lack of logic can go. Honestly, this is becoming quite entertaining.

As for talking to a wall - sounds a lot like Buddhism. Many Buddhists find pure enlightenment in doing such actions. Of course they're going to burn in hell with the rest of non-Christians, so I guess it matters little who or what they talk to.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Okay Nessa. I obliged you this weekend and went to our local Border’s and checked out Strobel’s newer book you continue to refer to. I sat down and I skimmed through it a little bit, and sure enough it was different than the book I read. His Case for Faith was more or less an answer to those critics of his first book I read, The Case for Christ. He broke it down into 8 different objections that he thought a critic of Christianity may have.

Good,glad to see you read Strobels book. (or atleast the highlights)

quote:

But let’s deal with the crux of your argument, Nessa, with Strobel’s 3rd argument: Evolution. Immediately I identified a common Creationist flaw with pretty much the entire chapter: the majority of Strobel’s argument had little to do with evolution, and more to do with the concept of abiogenesis. Evolutionists have very little, if any concern over how life was created on earth (abiogenesis). Rather, they study how life went forth from that period on (evolution). It amazes me how Strobel, being such a great investigative journalist, confuses these two. He then, of course, continues on about transition fossils never being found, which I can only conclude that like you, Nessa, Strobel neglected to read some of the same links I gave you about transitional fossils.

The fact of the matter is you are believing in something that never took place. Macro evolution is false, there are missing links,and no those missing links haven't been cleared up. You know Darwin's finches? Yea, they are still creating Finches.

quote:

And then much to my delight, Strobel touches on a Creationist concept I am very familiar with, Irreducible Complexity. For his example on this subject, he uses Dr. Michael Behe and his book, Darwin’s Black Box, which I’ve read a number of times. I’ll spare you the detail of the concept of IC Nessa, because I know you’ll do a good job on your own reading more about it, much like you’ve shown here so far. But I’ve debated and thoroughly debunked Behe’s concepts many times over in my past. And one of my favorite authors has also done a wonderful job debunking Behe in his own right, Dr. Ken Miller. Here’s just a couple of websites you can check out for yourself (if you have the intellectual honesty to do so):

Yes, I know who Behe is.

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/e...view/index.html
http://www.world-of-dawkins.com/Catalano/box/behe.shtml

quote:

It’s interesting to note that Ken Miller himself is a Christian, yet he has no problem with evolution. It may also be interesting to note that 40% of evolutionists believe in a deity of some sort, including some are actually Christians like Miller. Coincidentally, one of my favorite books I’ve read is Miller’s book, Finding Darwin’s God: A Scientist’s Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution. It’s truly a fascinating book, and I’ve recommended it for both Christians and non-Christians in the past.

I don't have anything against evolution,I believe in micro evolution. Just not macro.

quote:

But back to Strobel. I did not read the rest of his book (I was sitting at Border’s for over an hour anyway and I had other errands to run), but I felt it necessary to do a little more research about some criticisms on the internet. I would be really interested to hear what you have to say to the following criticisms:

quote:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...ned/index.shtml http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...d/strobel.shtml Please do take note of the criticisms on objection 3, and tell me what you think. Overall, this chapter takes the common logical fallacy of appeal to ignorance, which you are also very apt at doing. IOW, since Strobel can’t possibly understand (or willing to listen in your case), God must therefore be the culprit. Very bad logic.

quote:

So "Objection #3" really isn't an objection at all, but rather an excuse for Strobel to argue: "Since we can't account for the origin of life, God must've been behind it." But this is just an appeal to ignorance, attributing that which we can't explain to God and converting Him into a three letter word meaning "I don't know."

No, that's not true. You need to stop accusing me of things I haven't done. Alright? You want this debate to be fair,correct? So I suggest you drop the personal picking, alright?

quote:

It's in a book,I gave you the title. Either read it, or don't. But that's proof,it's just as liable as the internet.

quote:

Really Nessa, does your entire case against evolution rest on this book alone? Do you have anything more to add, considering my criticisms above?

No, My entire case against MACRO evolution doesn't rest on this book alone. But, that's one of the books I refer to.

quote:

Why yes, I do get this rather immature elementary breakdown of the two words. A wonderful game of semantics you're playing with me here. What is painfully obvious, however, is that you’re being intellectually dishonest and failing to read the links I gave to you, because those links answers this very question you ask about micro- and macro-.

It's not immature elementry broken down. You aren't listening, there is a difference between Micro and macro,you are saying they are the same but they totally aren't. I'm not playing a game. I'm not being dishonest either. I already gave you a link explaining about micro and macro. I understand the difference between the two clearly.

quote:

What does Exodus 20:16 (the 9th Commandment) say about dishonesty? Now remember, you can lie to me, you can even lie to yourself, but you just can’t lie to Jesus. So let’s try to be a little more honest with each other and read each other’s content that helps support our arguments. I have read yours, you must do me the honors of reading mine. Now just to be nice, here it is again:

I'm not lying. Believe what you will,but I'm not.

quote:

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ Now I know there’s a lot there. But as I’ve said before, feel free to ask me questions if you need to. But more specifically, here’s a specific part on evidence on speciation (macroevolution):

quote:

Microevolution, or change beneath the species level, may be thought of as relatively small scale change

Micro evolution small changes within the species.

quote:

Macroevolution is evolution on the "grand scale"

Yes, Macroevolution large changes from one species to the next.
I just pulled that from the link you sent me.



http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc...tml#speciations

Get it?

quote:

You must do better than this. Unlike you, I investigate and research. I want the name of the author so I can look up things for myself. Now go get your sister, go get your mother, go get your neighbor, or go get a very long pole with a little sticky thingy on the end – do whatever you need to do to get that book for me, please.

I told you already,I studied this subject. So,yea I've done my research.
I'll find my science book from last year ( and I'll check what chapter from this year. )

quote:

No, God told me too. Can you prove me wrong?

Yes, I can. God wouldn't tell you to do something like that.

quote:

Now you’re really acting 16. What’s next? I’m waiting for a “you’re not the boss of me” comment to come soon. Geez.

You aren't. I'm not the boss of you either, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to act like you're above me, and stop acting so condscending. Just because you're older than me doesn't mean anything.

quote:

You either deal with the fact that this forum is about beliefs, political or otherwise (in this case religion), or kindly don’t post. Your decision.

I know what this forum is about. Debating. It's not about personally attacking ones beliefs. You can't deny that.

quote:

Okay, prove he isin’t made up. And since I’m a deist and don’t believe in the Bible which is man-made, you’re going to have to use something else to convince me.

Go look in the mirror,and that's your proof. You are living breathing evidence my friend. The Bible isn't man made, It was written through man, but it was God's words. You could says God's inspiration.

quote:

Wow, you’re really going to use logic on me now? You already committed a logical fallacy here: leap of logic. By you simply saying God is logical doesn't make him logical one bit. Prove to me step by step how God is more logical than the Great Cookie Monster I believe in. And no, I don’t know the answer – that is up to you to prove it to me. I can’t see God. I don’t believe the fact that God told men to stuff down about him in a thing called “the Bible” anymore than I believe Allah told Muhammed all his stuff in the middle of a desert. I want proof that God actually did it. Talking through men isin’t enough. For all I know, they all smoked a big spleef and hallucinated their entire life. So show me outside of the Bible that the Christian God exists, and maybe I’ll give credence to it. Stop playing games and prove it.

But,it's obvious that God is logical.
Revelation,and Genesis, and all the books inbetween tell of God's existance. He is speaking to us through it. It's His word afterall.
I suggest you read it, you might actually find something interesting...and no I don't mean read it to pick it apart,I mean read it to learn it.

quote:

Give me the links. I want to see how well you did with others. Please be honest. Remember the 9th Commandment.

I know the 9th commandment, but remeber you have to follow it also. I would send you the links, but the debates aren't there anymore, only new ones open ( which I haven't participated in.)The webmaster ( Jeffrey ) removes anything past a certain date.

This is a special board for people who have the same illness I have. But, I can tell you the topics. If you wish.

I'm sure you'll still accuse me of being a liar, but I did win debates there. I've lost many aswell.

___________________
~Nessa

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Good,glad to see you read Strobels book. (or atleast the highlights) The fact of the matter is you are believing in something that never took place. Macro evolution is false, there are missing links,and no those missing links haven't been cleared up. You know Darwin's finches? Yea, they are still creating Finches. Yes, I know who Behe is. http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/e...view/index.html http://www.world-of-dawkins.com/Catalano/box/behe.shtml I don't have anything against evolution,I believe in micro evolution. Just not macro. No, that's not true. You need to stop accusing me of things I haven't done. Alright? You want this debate to be fair,correct? So I suggest you drop the personal picking, alright? No, My entire case against MACRO evolution doesn't rest on this book alone. But, that's one of the books I refer to. It's not immature elementry broken down. You aren't listening, there is a difference between Micro and macro,you are saying they are the same but they totally aren't. I'm not playing a game. I'm not being dishonest either. I already gave you a link explaining about micro and macro. I understand the difference between the two clearly. I'm not lying. Believe what you will,but I'm not. Micro evolution small changes within the species. Yes, Macroevolution large changes from one species to the next. I just pulled that from the link you sent me. http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc...tml#speciations Get it? I told you already,I studied this subject. So,yea I've done my research. I'll find my science book from last year ( and I'll check what chapter from this year. ) Yes, I can. God wouldn't tell you to do something like that. You aren't. I'm not the boss of you either, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to act like you're above me, and stop acting so condscending. Just because you're older than me doesn't mean anything. I know what this forum is about. Debating. It's not about personally attacking ones beliefs. You can't deny that. Go look in the mirror,and that's your proof. You are living breathing evidence my friend. The Bible isn't man made, It was written through man, but it was God's words. You could says God's inspiration. But,it's obvious that God is logical. Revelation,and Genesis, and all the books inbetween tell of God's existance. He is speaking to us through it. It's His word afterall. I suggest you read it, you might actually find something interesting...and no I don't mean read it to pick it apart,I mean read it to learn it. I know the 9th commandment, but remeber you have to follow it also. I would send you the links, but the debates aren't there anymore, only new ones open ( which I haven't participated in.)The webmaster ( Jeffrey ) removes anything past a certain date. This is a special board for people who have the same illness I have. But, I can tell you the topics. If you wish. I'm sure you'll still accuse me of being a liar, but I did win debates there. I've lost many aswell.

A wall.. thats what you are.

Most of your replies consists of "that is not true...I beleive this....i didnt say that... that is a lie... read this book... read that book...ive done my research...you are wrong" without even arguing it.

So far... everyone agaisnt you has made you look like a complete idiot..

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by occrider But you guys were doing such a good job .

Yes, now that I look at it, the discussion is totally entertaining if you're just a side observer. On one hand a bunch of people trying to be logical and serious, providing argument after argument, and on the other a person who totally doesn't get any of them and just keeps saying "you're wrong, I'm right". I stopped at a point where I was either gonna yell or laugh at the situation. But I'm glad to see that Opus has not yet given up and is still fighting ignorance. Go Opus!

quote:

In keeping up with the spirit of this debate, I was thinking about inviting my bedroom wall to join the argument. He's not very logical, doesn't respond well to specific arguments, but I've never seen such conviction! Apparentely his style of debate must be growing popular ...

You know what would be totally cool and awesome? If we start a debate between Dj-Fuq and Nellie. Say about drugs. I'm sure Nellie is against them. That might end up as the longest thread in the history of TA! "'Drugs are harmless, it says so on a pro-drug web page!' 'No they're not, it says so in the bible!'..."

___________________
1+1=10

Last edited by DrUg_Tit0 on Feb-09-2004 at 21:19

quote:

You know what would be totally cool and awesome? If we start a debate between Dj-Fuq and Nellie. Say about drugs. I'm sure Nellie is against them. That might end up as the longest thread in the history of TA! "'Drugs are harmless, it says so on a pro-drug web page!' 'No they're not, it says so in the bible!'..."

I just had a friend get out of the hospital because she had over dosed on drugs. So if I were you,I'd stop right there.

___________________
~Nessa

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King A wall.. thats what you are. Most of your replies consists of "that is not true...I beleive this....i didnt say that... that is a lie... read this book... read that book...ive done my research...you are wrong" without even arguing it. So far... everyone agaisnt you has made you look like a complete idiot..

No,they haven't. I'm not a wall. But that's only your opinion,and it doesn't matter to me.

___________________
~Nessa

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 No,they haven't. I'm not a wall. But that's only your opinion,and it doesn't matter to me.

... couse you are a wall

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 No,they haven't. I'm not a wall. But that's only your opinion,and it doesn't matter to me.

Yes they have. You are a wall. But that is your opinion , and it deoesnt matter to us all.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V