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Originally posted by Jayx1 Who exactly are the "people"? Poll aunt maude and uncle lester and im sure they are all for banning smoking in nightclubs and strip bars. Take a look at the people toasting the passing of the law at union station last week. I dont think any of them have even stepped foot in a nightclub since Lester B pearson was in office!!

It's myopic to think that it's just the government that wants this.
How about The Lung Association? Canada's oldest voluntary, not-for-profit health promotion organizations.

And what about your peers?
Pointing at the older people whom happen to be in office doesn't mean there aren't other younger people that actually go to clubs that do want this.
I don't understand all the hostility towards a good thing?
I mean we all understand the hazards of second-hand smoke; they are factual and non-disputable...

The hostility is over how much control the government can wield over its citizens and how they can restrict ADULT behaviour. Its about the jobs that will be lost and its about the fact that tobacco is a legal product.

If the government were really serious about tobacco they would impose a prohibition on it but they are addicted to cigarette taxes.

Also, please dont tell me that charities are altruistic organizations. Ive had enough experience with charities to understand that the core of them are PAID professionals who's job it is to do nothing but lobby.

Newsflash everyone...

anyone who has taken stats in school has defenetly been told that stats can be perspectively skewed to prove any point...

as a former market research analyst, we used to take only what we wanted, set up criteria so that we could end up with a certain number and then throw it at the public to prove a point that really cant be proven.

___________________
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Originally posted by Jayx1 The hostility is over how much control the government can wield over its citizens and how they can restrict ADULT behaviour. Its about the jobs that will be lost and its about the fact that tobacco is a legal product.

That would be an opinion that is shared by many yes.
The opposite is also true that there are a lot more people that don't go out because of the smoking that is done in enclosed areas. To say that jobs will be lost is a hypothetical situation that can only be proven after several months of the ban being in effect.
It could also be argued that because of the no smoking ban, the $$$ that was hidden because of people not going out beforehand is lucrative.
We'll just have to wait an see how it goes.

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If the government were really serious about tobacco they would impose a prohibition on it but they are addicted to cigarette taxes.

We all know that government loves taxes; it's how they operate (unfortunately). Higher taxes will serve to deter smoking, fatten their budjet AND take more people out of the already burdened Health Care system. It's win/win/win for the government...(and in the long-term us; the taxpayers).

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Also, please dont tell me that charities are altruistic organizations. Ive had enough experience with charities to understand that the core of them are PAID professionals who's job it is to do nothing but lobby.

Absoultely!
How else would a non-profit orgainization survive?

The results have been that if you ask any club/bar owner in cities where this has taken effect which they like better, smoking or non smoking theyd go back to smoking in a heartbeat.

People use California as an example. well California has year round summer... makes a big difference come January doesnt it?

Dont worry...patio bans are coming. Apparently they already ban smoking on patios in New York State.

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Originally posted by Rodrico Well I dont wanna start a war, famine, or devastation on the count of my cigarette butt, so I think I will stop from destroying the world by not smoking inside a club and have a law to force me to do that. Yeah, while you drive your car to work, drink mocca-frappacino's from your local tim hortons, and shop at the mall for your trendy clothes that are made off the blood and sweat of thousands of underpaid sweat shop workers. Well this tells me two things, one is that your stupid, secondly that smog has little to do with cigarette butts. Maybe its the industrial factories that strive to keep our economy open yet pollute our Earth in order for our own survival, not to mention that nice car you drive around that is a luxury you take oh so for granted, yet have wonderful fully working legs and feet to get you anywhere. Don't piss on cigarette smoke likes its the leading cause of all air pollution in this world. Lets hope that someone isn't you, otherwise were gonna be in a shitstorm of mis-informed and badly shaped laws... The names Rico, RodRico to you. Listen, if you honestly think about the percentage of people who die from second hand smoke, were looking at a less than 1 percent chance of dying from inhaling other peoples smoke, then compared to the millions of other ways you can die. The only people who die from lung cancer are those who are actually real smokers, the statistics of you dying from my second hand smoke are quite low. First of all, you dont know if someone close to me has died from lung cancer, you make some assumption that I have no understanding of the pain someone who dies from Lung Cancer. But see, I do this thing called thinking, and what it does for me is it checks the rationality of your claims, and while I see your stats its not enough for me to try and take away legal rights away from the people, on another note...have you ever watched someone die slowly after being run over by a car? its quite disgustingly horrible, and yet, you dont see me trying to ban cars. Not that Im going to say that smoking is good for you, dont get me wrong, I plan on quiting soon, and taking this as a step towards having cleaner air in the clubs and not having to stink like an ashtray when I leave any club. I just dont like being forced by people to make decisions for me and strip away my rights without even trying to accomodate me in any possible way. What does this have to do with clubbing and the new law that was passed? How about, when you live like an Amish person, then you can tell me about how your life choices dont affect my health everday, he who has not sinned may cast the first stone.. As I am sure many things dont make sense to you, but you are right on something, I wouldnt go out of my way to kill others (tho I wish I could) and I definately dont care for enviroment and heatlh issues, since our system is so beyond flawed in dealing with these topics. All I know is, I dont care for your crusades or your ideas to be forced upon me, I want to make my own decisions and live my life as I see it fit.

I'm not passing a judgement, just an observation, but to me you seem to be a very pessimistic, disturbed, and unhappy little man. You ripped apart everything I had to say, just to make yourself feel right, and stronger in this debate, instead of trying to see what the real meaning behind what I had to say was (which you clearly missed). You resorted to insults and rude insinuations/comments to back-up your fight, and anger.

I no longer want to discuss this with you, because obviously somewhere along the line, you forgot how to discuss something in a civil manner.

As for Jayx1, please don't assume I have not been in a club. I have been in many clubs, both smoking and non-smoking, and I will always prefer the non-smoking environment.

Go ahead and hate me for caring about what we've got. It's people that don't give a shit about the world who condone everything that is bad in our society, and it just so happens that I don't want to contribute to it.

im not assuming you have never been to a club. But what im saying is that most people who support this law dont go to clubs. Id like to see a scientific poll done among club patrons only and see what the result is.

As for your intentions. They are noble indeed. However we do have to live in reality and reality says that we will never have a utopian society simply because your utopia could be someone else's hell. Bleeding heart liberals always fail to understand this.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Jayx1, honestly, you have no point.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 In Canada Men can marry men, women are allowed to go topless, marijuana is almost legal, and we are the most progressive country when it comes to equal rights..

True, women can go topless, drinking is allowed, and many other things also. BUT, these things do not directly effect others. Second hand smoke does. In a public place, you can't get away from second hand smoke, but you can get away from a topless woman !!

This freedom shit you are going on about, it's a fucking joke guys. Just smoke outside. When I read that government shit you were going on about, I laughed. You still have your freedom. Well over half of Toronto wants you to smoke outside, so basically, you are taking away MY freedom when you smoke inside !!!

I should have the freedom to be in a smoke free enviroment ! Right?
So honestly I am so sick of you trying to prove your point...because when it comes down to it, the majority of Toronto wants it to happen.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 But what im saying is that most people who support this law dont go to clubs.

You keep hammering this point and at best, it's an opinion.
Even if it were true, a million wrong opinions is still wrong.

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Originally posted by Rodrico Well this tells me two things, one is that your stupid, secondly that smog has little to do with cigarette butts. Maybe its the industrial factories that strive to keep our economy open yet pollute our Earth in order for our own survival, not to mention that nice car you drive around that is a luxury you take oh so for granted, yet have wonderful fully working legs and feet to get you anywhere. Don't piss on cigarette smoke likes its the leading cause of all air pollution in this world.

I really do not believe she was pointing at cigarettes as the leading cause of pollution. I think she was reffering to generally unhealthy(for the environment) behaviour, and that we must change our general habits to protect ourselves.

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Originally posted by Rodrico Listen, if you honestly think about the percentage of people who die from second hand smoke, were looking at a less than 1 percent chance of dying from inhaling other peoples smoke, then compared to the millions of other ways you can die. The only people who die from lung cancer are those who are actually real smokers, the statistics of you dying from my second hand smoke are quite low.

How about not just dieing? All of you are looking at the end result, why not look at how you would get there? Smoking and its related health affects, are not only restricted to death. I have asthama, which means i have restricted lung capacity due to my condition, does the tar which hangs in the air not constrict my breathing? These are side affects of smoking that are not just cancer related. They are real. That stuff a smoker caughs up every morning, is that cancer? no. There are other health side affects which you must understand, please educate yourself.

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Originally posted by Rodrico First of all, you dont know if someone close to me has died from lung cancer, you make some assumption that I have no understanding of the pain someone who dies from Lung Cancer. But see, I do this thing called thinking, and what it does for me is it checks the rationality of your claims, and while I see your stats its not enough for me to try and take away legal rights away from the people, on another note...have you ever watched someone die slowly after being run over by a car? its quite disgustingly horrible, and yet, you dont see me trying to ban cars. Not that Im going to say that smoking is good for you, dont get me wrong, I plan on quiting soon, and taking this as a step towards having cleaner air in the clubs and not having to stink like an ashtray when I leave any club. I just dont like being forced by people to make decisions for me and strip away my rights without even trying to accomodate me in any possible way.

They are not taking away your right of being able to smoke, they are restricting the venue in which you can smoke. Yes the gov does not ban driving even though you can kill somebody...Are you allowed to drive in a park, indoors, on side walks? NO. Again they are not taking away the right to drive, but restricting the venue. Its the exact same idea, and if you cant see that, then you are very close minded. They are trying to create safer controlled environments, you can drink but not everywhere. You can do a lot of htings, but they are all restricted to certain areas to keep people safe.

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Originally posted by Rodrico What does this have to do with clubbing and the new law that was passed? How about, when you live like an Amish person, then you can tell me about how your life choices dont affect my health everday, he who has not sinned may cast the first stone.

She was trying to show that there are circumstances where you would not smoke, because it is unhealthy. Those are instances, just as people in a bar or resturant who would like to enjoy a smoke free time.

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Originally posted by Rodrico As I am sure many things dont make sense to you, but you are right on something, I wouldnt go out of my way to kill others (tho I wish I could) and I definately dont care for enviroment and heatlh issues, since our system is so beyond flawed in dealing with these topics. All I know is, I dont care for your crusades or your ideas to be forced upon me, I want to make my own decisions and live my life as I see it fit.

there is give and take in every circumstance. This is a democracy last i heard(although you may argue otherwise). Leaders are chosen, choices are made, not all of them correct. Please feel free to contact your member of parliment if you feel so strong about this matter. Obviously there is a section of the population which has chosen non-smoking, and this being a democracy im gonna say they are the MAJORITY

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Originally posted by Jayx1 They are working on banning smoking on patios in Toronto as we speak. And they have already banned all outdoor smoking on some school campuses in Canada and the US. This is why im against ANY new laws. Because the zealots will just push for more and more.

I know i attend a university, and people are more than able to smoke...as for your education? Im not sure it exists, considering a TORONTO school (york) allows smoking on campus.

quit smoking - digest a mushroom.
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Last edited by arek on May-25-2004 at 14:59

STOP ATTACKING THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE ARGUMENTS, ATTACK THE ARGUMENTS THEMSELVES!

keep bringing up points, i will keep shooting them down with real arguments, not negative cricicism of the person.